The God Debate Download

Over the last week or so, quite a few people have asked me for my reaction to The God Debate which took place between Trent Horn and Dan Barker, entitled “God: Supreme Being or Imaginary Friend?”.

I think it’s a hard to review a debate objectively, but I can definitely say that I enjoyed the experience. It was certainly well-attended, with both the debating chamber and the overflow room being standing room only. Apart from one cheap shot from Dan towards the end, it was a calm and respectful dialogue.

There were a few things as to the debate format that I would have liked to have been different. I’ve listened to a lot of debates on various subjects and I always end up wishing that there could be more time for cross examination, since I think that’s where the real debate actually happens. However, I know a lot of people think the debate is more constructive when the debaters speak in rounds.

The section I would have particularly liked to have structured differently was the Q&A. I thought the time allotted for each section should have been halved, reducing the time to a sixty second answer and thirty second rebuttal. In my opinion, the questioners were given a little too much freedom and probably should have been moderated a little more heavily. There seemed to be a disproportionate number of questions to each debater and those who asked Trent questions were often wildly off topic, raising issues such as contraception and limbo! This was actually something which Dan did during the debate as well, straying from the topic at hand (the existence of God) and instead wandering into areas such as Biblical criticism, the efficacy of prayer etc. On the occasions when Dan spoke about the Bible I was a little horrified by some of his Biblical interpretations, particularly given that he used to be pastor. For example, he asserted that Jesus told people that they should castrate themselves. I really hope he didn’t preach that message when he led a congregation!

With regards to the debaters themselves, both presented themselves well. Dan had the far greater debating experience and I think this came across in his early delivery, whereas Trent took a little more time to warm up coming into his own later, although this might perhaps be due to the fact that arguments for theism first require the laying of a sound philosophical base.

Looking at my notes from the debate, I could say much more, but you don’t have to read my analysis when you could listen to the debate yourself! The MP3 of the debate is now available for $5 from Catholic Answers:

trent-debate-digital

Quick Apology: “Saint intercession isn’t in the Bible”

In previous “Quick Apologies”, I’ve dealt with different aspects of the intercession of the saints. Today I’d like to address one of the final pieces of the puzzle…

Objection

After explaining the Catholic understanding of Saintly intercession, as well as having shown its merit, one is often presented with a common retort against many Catholic doctrines:

“But [Doctrine X] is not in the Bible!”

I’ve written before in another post about the problem with this objection and about the logical problems and presuppositions associated with it. However, is the claim actually true in this case? Is it correct to say that we don’t see saintly intercession within the pages of Scripture?

Response

We actually do see Saintly intercession within the pages of Scripture. We see departed Saints offering prayers and pleading for God to take action upon the earth.  In fact, we don’t just see departed Christians doing this…

Heavenly Helpers

In John’s Book of Revelation, we read the following:

And when he had taken the scroll, the four living creatures and the twenty-four elders fell down before the Lamb, each holding a harp, and with golden bowls full of incense, which are the prayers of the saints
– Revelation 5:8

These “twenty-four elders” are deceased humans, yet we are told that they offer bowls of incense before the throne of God which are representative of the prayers of other Christians. If they are offering these prayers to God, it would make sense that they have some knowledge of their content too.

In response to this, I’ve heard a variety of attempts to deny that this passage teaches Saintly intercession. However, the fact cannot be denied that the Book of Revelation presents us with a picture of the deceased interacting in some way with the prayers of those on earth. This stands in rather stark contrast to assertions which Catholics often hear (“Christians in Heaven can have nothing to do with Christians on earth”).

On earth as it is in Heaven

A little later in the Book of Revelation, we read about how the martyrs in Heaven petition God:

…I saw under the altar the souls of those who had been slain for the word of God and for the witness they had borne; they cried out with a loud voice, “O Sovereign Lord, holy and true, how long before thou wilt judge and avenge our blood on those who dwell upon the earth?” – Revelation 6:9-10

Here we have a concrete example of deceased Christian martyrs pleading for God to take action upon earth!

Not just Saints

A few chapters later, we see not only Saints, but angels as having something to do with prayers from earth:

And another angel came and stood at the altar with a golden censer; and he was given much incense to mingle with the prayers of all the saints upon the golden altar before the throne; and the smoke of the incense rose with the prayers of the saints from the hand of the angel before God. – Revelation 8:3-4

One might ask how this is possible. How could an angel have anything to do with the prayers of men on earth? How could they know of the contents of a man’s prayer? If we recall that angels rejoice whenever a sinner repents (Luke 15:10) then surely anything is possible through the grace of God.

Angel

UPDATE 11/20/15 07:10 – I just got back from Mass where the First Reading included the first passage I quoted in this post. I had no idea prior to posting 🙂

PWJ: S4E72 – SPAT 3 – “The Kids Are Alright”

Andrew and Matt pick up from where David and Brenton left off last week in Screwtape Proposes A Toast, in the section of the address where Screwtape talks about liberty and democracy.

S4E72: Screwtape Proposes A Toast (Part 3 – “The Kids Are Alright”) (Download)

If you enjoy this episode, you can subscribe manually, or any place where good podcasts can be found (iTunesGoogle Play, AmazonPodbeanStitcherTuneIn and Overcast), as well as on YouTube. The roadmap for Season 4 is available here.

More information about us can be found on our website, PintsWithJack.com. If you’d like to support us and get fantastic gifts, please join us on Patreon.

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PWJ: S4E40 – TSL 20 – “Matchmaker”

Screwtape wants to play matchmaker and choose what he regards as a suitable romantic partner for the patient.

S4E40: “Matchmaker” (Download)

If you enjoy this episode, you can subscribe manually, or any place where good podcasts can be found (iTunesGoogle Play, AmazonPodbeanStitcherTuneIn and Overcast), as well as on YouTube. The roadmap for Season 4 is available here.

More information about us can be found on our website, PintsWithJack.com. If you’d like to support us and get fantastic gifts, please join us on Patreon.

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Please join me in a “Stupid Boy Project”

Join MeOne of the first books I read when my sabbatical began was Yes Man by Danny Wallace. Although altered considerably, the book was turned into a movie back in 2009, starring Jim Carey. I had actually read this book before. In fact, that book had played quite a significant part in my final decision to move to America!

In the book, Danny resolves, for the rest of the year, to say “Yes” to every question, suggestion or invitation given to him, in the hope of becoming more open to what life sent his way. As you can imagine, this led to all kinds of adventures, such as when he received an email from the prince of Nigeria asking whether he could have Danny’s bank details… 😉

I’ve been a huge fan of Danny for years and I’ve read all the books and seen the shows chronicling his various adventures. These have included a bet with his friend Dave Gorman to find 54 other people also named “Dave Gorman”, converting his apartment into its own sovereign nation, as well as starting his own cult…albeit a nice one 🙂

If you have read any of Dave or Danny’s books, you will know that Danny’s (now) ex-girlfriend Hanne, referred to his escapades as “Stupid Boy Projects”. Well, September is just around the corner and I have a stupid boy project for you, dear reader! You won’t even need to send your bank details to the crowned sovereign of any nation…

Art Of Manliness

In September I will be working through the PDF guide from one of my favourite blogs, Art of Manliness. The eBook is called Thirty Days to a Better Man and each day you will read just a couple of pages and then set about given the task for the day. For example, on the first day the task is to “Define your core values”. The following day you will “Shine your shoes”. On Day 7 you will “Reconnect with an Old Friend”, on Day 10 you will memorize the poem “If” and on Day 30 receive a straight razor shave.

So, if you’re interested in joining me on this Stupid Boy Project, please download the PDF and I’ll see you on the journey next month to becoming a better man!

Who’s your daddy? St. Ignatius of Antioch

This is the first entry in what I hope to be a regular series of posts about the Early Church Fathers.

It is a good thing to study the Early Fathers because by reading their writings we can get a better picture of what the Church looked like during those early centuries, both during the years of persecution and the years of peace.

The Church Fathers speak to us of the Faith they learned from the Apostles and from their immediate successors.  If we would sit and listen, their words can still instruct and inspire us today, just as they did for Christians under their care in their own time.

I would like to begin this series of entries with my favourite Early Church Father, the inspirational martyr and gifted writer, St. Ignatius of Antioch.

“Blessed is the man who perseveres under trial, because when he has stood the test, he will receive the crown of life that God has promised to those who love him.”

– James 1:12

My posts on the Fathers will not normally be this long, but reading St. Ignatius for the first time had some a profound effect on me I want to try and do him justice.  Read to the end, it’ll be worth it, I promise.

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PWJ: S4E87 – AH – “After Hours” with Marcellino D’Ambrosio

Both Matt and David love When the Church Was Young by Dr. Marcellino D’Ambrosio. After mentioning it in a couple of episodes, an increasing number of listeners read it as well. As a result, they decided to invite Dr. D’Ambrosio onto the show to discuss his book.

S4E87: “After Hours” with Dr. Marcellino D’Ambrosio (Download)

If you enjoy this episode, you can subscribe manually, or any place where good podcasts can be found (iTunesGoogle Play, AmazonPodbeanStitcherTuneIn and Overcast), as well as on YouTube. The roadmap for Season 4 is available here.

More information about us can be found on our website, PintsWithJack.com. If you’d like to support us and get fantastic gifts, please join us on Patreon.

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