Atheist Analysis: Abortion Debate

A Restless Pilgrim favourite, Trent Horn, recently engaged in an abortion debate on Atheist Analysis:

While enjoyable, I thought the pro-choice position was especially weak. Honestly, I’ve seen far better defenses of abortion.  During the Q&A, Trent’s opponent repeatedly responded with “I don’t know”, “I’m not sure about that” etc. While this shows humility and that’s commendable, it doesn’t really speak highly for your cause if you’re unable to offer a rational, thought-out responses to simple questions…

Quick Apology: “Saint intercession isn’t in the Bible”

In previous “Quick Apologies”, I’ve dealt with different aspects of the intercession of the saints. Today I’d like to address one of the final pieces of the puzzle…

Objection

After explaining the Catholic understanding of Saintly intercession, as well as having shown its merit, one is often presented with a common retort against many Catholic doctrines:

“But [Doctrine X] is not in the Bible!”

I’ve written before in another post about the problem with this objection and about the logical problems and presuppositions associated with it. However, is the claim actually true in this case? Is it correct to say that we don’t see saintly intercession within the pages of Scripture?

Response

We actually do see Saintly intercession within the pages of Scripture. We see departed Saints offering prayers and pleading for God to take action upon the earth.  In fact, we don’t just see departed Christians doing this…

Heavenly Helpers

In John’s Book of Revelation, we read the following:

And when he had taken the scroll, the four living creatures and the twenty-four elders fell down before the Lamb, each holding a harp, and with golden bowls full of incense, which are the prayers of the saints
– Revelation 5:8

These “twenty-four elders” are deceased humans, yet we are told that they offer bowls of incense before the throne of God which are representative of the prayers of other Christians. If they are offering these prayers to God, it would make sense that they have some knowledge of their content too.

In response to this, I’ve heard a variety of attempts to deny that this passage teaches Saintly intercession. However, the fact cannot be denied that the Book of Revelation presents us with a picture of the deceased interacting in some way with the prayers of those on earth. This stands in rather stark contrast to assertions which Catholics often hear (“Christians in Heaven can have nothing to do with Christians on earth”).

On earth as it is in Heaven

A little later in the Book of Revelation, we read about how the martyrs in Heaven petition God:

…I saw under the altar the souls of those who had been slain for the word of God and for the witness they had borne; they cried out with a loud voice, “O Sovereign Lord, holy and true, how long before thou wilt judge and avenge our blood on those who dwell upon the earth?” – Revelation 6:9-10

Here we have a concrete example of deceased Christian martyrs pleading for God to take action upon earth!

Not just Saints

A few chapters later, we see not only Saints, but angels as having something to do with prayers from earth:

And another angel came and stood at the altar with a golden censer; and he was given much incense to mingle with the prayers of all the saints upon the golden altar before the throne; and the smoke of the incense rose with the prayers of the saints from the hand of the angel before God. – Revelation 8:3-4

One might ask how this is possible. How could an angel have anything to do with the prayers of men on earth? How could they know of the contents of a man’s prayer? If we recall that angels rejoice whenever a sinner repents (Luke 15:10) then surely anything is possible through the grace of God.

Angel

UPDATE 11/20/15 07:10 – I just got back from Mass where the First Reading included the first passage I quoted in this post. I had no idea prior to posting 🙂

Sundays in Scripture

Seventh Day Adventists (SDAs) believe that Christians shouldn’t worship on Sundays and that the Saturday Sabbath is still in effect. In recent weeks I’ve been having a discussion in a Seventh Day Adventist in response to my post Why do Christians worship on Sundays?  The exchange has been good and I think it’s well worth a read and I’d invite you to check it out.

Sunday

I haven’t had much interaction with SDAs before and I hope to do some posts looking at their more interesting doctrinal positions, of which there are quite a few. However, in preparation for this, today I would simply like to do a post where I catalogue all the places in the New Testament where Sunday is mentioned:

1. The Resurrection
All the Gospels record the Resurrection taking place on Sunday (Matthew 28:1-7; Mark 16:2, 9; Luke 24:1; John 20:1).

2. Resurrection Appearances
Jesus appears to His disciples on Sundays (John 20:19, John 20:26).

3. Pentecost
The original Pentecost took place on a Sunday (Lev. 23:16) and therefore so did Pentecost in the New Testament (Acts 2:1). On this day the first sermon is preached, three thousand convert and are baptized.

4. Preaching and celebrating the Eucharist
In Paul’s travels, it is recorded that the Christian community came together to hear Paul preach and break bread (Acts 20:7).

5. Gathered collections
Paul instructed the Corinthians to gather their charitable donations on Sunday (1 Corinthians 16:2).

6. Vision of Heavenly Worship
Jesus gave the apostle John the vision of Revelation on the first day of the week (Revelation 1:10).

JW Update

A few of you have asked, so I thought I’d do a quick post to say that I haven’t had any more visits from the Jehovah Witnesses following my last meeting.

JW

I went through the material they left concerning the Deuterocanon/Apocrypha. It wasn’t very good, just the usual objections. It was rather amusing though to find them trying to marshall St. Athanasius, particularly given that he vigorously opposed Arius who taught something similar to what Jehovah Witnesses believe about Jesus.

Quick Apology: Losing Authority

Today’s “Quick Apology” comes from a conversation a friend of mine recently had with a Reformed Protestant. It’s actually a bit of a long response for a “Quick” apology, but oh well…

Objection

“I’ll concede that the case for the historical church being the Catholic church is very strong. However, the chosen people (the Israelites) were consistently disobeying God throughout history and eventually ended up crucifying Christ. Throughout history the chosen people abandoned God. What makes you think that the Catholic Church hasn’t done this or won’t do this?”

Response

Here, the Protestant is admitting to many of the claims of the Catholic Church, but appears to be challenging the Church’s continued status as Christ’s Church, as well as calling into question her continued authority.

It must first obviously be admitted that sinners are found in the Catholic Church. After all, why else do you think I’m allowed membership?!. However, a few points should be made…

Old Testament

Israel certainly sinned over the course of Salvation History. However, would it mean that because of this, it would be better for a Jew or Gentile to abandon God’s people and “go it alone”? Of course not! If one left Judaism, thinking that this couldn’t possibly be the true religion due to the hypocrisy of some of their rulers and many its followers, then one would be making a huge mistake!

As Saint Paul said, “…to them belong the sonship, the glory, the covenants, the giving of the law, the worship, and the promises; to them belong the patriarchs (Romans 9:4-5). The Lord had given to Israel many wonderful gifts for the sake of salvation. It would be crazy to reject these gifts and walk away!

However, we actually have an example in the Old Testament of when some members of Israel did just that. After King Solomon’s death, his son ascended to the throne (1 Kings 12) who was a complete tyrant. The northern tribes refused to follow him and this resulted in the division of the Kingdom: the Kingdom of Israel in the north and the Kingdom of Judea in the south. This separatist movement received the condemnation of the prophets. Not only had they abandoned their rightful king, they had cut themselves off from the priesthood, the Temple and the sacrifices.

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