First, I would say say her using the word “Catholicism” as opposed to something like “Catholic social circles” is a bit careless. It’s a more important distinction than it might seem. But I guess that’s a different discussion for a different time.
To a great extent the social dynamics in Catholic circles tends to be clique-oriented.
She cites Scott Hahn. Another thing Hahn talks about is how he was shunned by Protestant friends when he converted to Catholicism. That’s a common problem Catholic converts from Protestantism face.
The problem Lizzie rightly decries is a far more more serious problem in mainline Protestant circles than she is letting on. I will give her the benefit of the doubt and say she is probably unaware. This is something many survivors of the People’s Temple cult experienced in Protestant congregations. For those who may be unaware of who the People’s Temple cult were, they were the cult that were forced to commit mass suicide by drinking cyanide-laced kool aid (that’s where the line “Drinking the Kool Aid” comes from) in Jonestown (named after its leader Jim Jones) in Guyana. What attracted these people to People’s Temple was the sense of belong they felt in contrast to their previous mainline Protestant congregations. It was a means to suck people in.
I find it interesting that she says Latin Mass communities are more socially open. In the Latin Mass there is absolutely no social interaction between congregants during the liturgy. This is something I think Novus Ordo parishes should emulate. Efforts to make the Mass more social not only haven’t produced the desired effect, I think it contributed to the opposite effect in addition to being annoying and contrived.
The after mass coffee socials take place after earlier masses as opposed to evening masses. That’s certainly understandable.
At least here in San Diego, the diocese taking over things like Young Adult ministries have contributed to the problem. In my view it has created more bureaucracy than social harmony. It was much better, although not perfect, when groups of this nature were created independently and worked in conjunction parish pastors. Going back to that model when be a step in the right direction.
First, I would say say her using the word “Catholicism” as opposed to something like “Catholic social circles” is a bit careless…To a great extent the social dynamics in Catholic circles tends to be clique-oriented.
She qualifies what she means at the beginning of the video. I don’t think it’s a big deal.
To a great extent the social dynamics in Catholic circles tends to be clique-oriented.
No more so than any other community I’ve been part of. In fact, I’d say it’s probably a bit better than most.
The problem Lizzie rightly decries is a far more more serious problem in mainline Protestant circles than she is letting on.
What makes you think it’s a more serious problem in mainline Protestant circles? That’s definitely not my experience.
I find it interesting that she says Latin Mass communities are more socially open
I’d agree. They tend to take parish life and after-Mass activities seriously. It’s the same among the Byzantines.
At least here in San Diego, the diocese taking over things like Young Adult ministries have contributed to the problem. In my view it has created more bureaucracy than social harmony.
San Diego has one of the most active Young Adult communities in the country, in no small part to Diocesan efforts. There are groups which exist today which would not have started without the help of the Diocese. How do you think they have contributed to the problem?
Qualification notwithstanding, the careless use of terminology is still not productive. I would say given the Protestant communities shunning those who convert to Catholicism as well as the stated experience of former People’s Temple members and others who get sucked into cults from Protestant sects, is a clear indication that the problem is more prevalent in Protestant communities than she is letting on.
I would agree that the clique-oriented social dynamics in many Catholic circles mirrors much of that of social circles in the world at large.
The young adult communities here in San Diego in the 1990s, despite its problems, was far better than what it is now.
I would say given the Protestant communities shunning those who convert to Catholicism
I’m not sure why you’re bringing this up. The issue isn’t over how a congregation/denomination treats those who have left, but how Catholics treat their own.
The young adult communities here in San Diego in the 1990s, despite its problems, was far better than what it is now
Um, Protestant communities being more socially inclusive is foundational to LIzzie’s argument. So why wouldn’t I bring that up?
The Mission Young Adult Group, which met every Wednesday night, during almost all of the nineties and the very early 2000s, drew Catholics from all around the San Diego area, averaged 70 to 85+ per meeting . Many meetings drew 100+. The content of the subject matter and its presentation was far superior to anything I’ve heard from recorded presentations of diocesan-run Theology of Tap meetings, which seemed to go downhill after the diocese took it over. Other social activities were far more frequent. There was also the Day at the Bay that ran the last Sunday of every month from early spring to late summer. Diocesan involvement in this was limited to scant promoting of these events.
Now you have part of the diocesan bureaucracy devoted to Young Adults that hasn’t produced anything remotely comparable to that.
Um, Protestant communities being more socially inclusive is foundational to Lizzie’s argument. So why wouldn’t I bring that up?
Is your argument that, because cults can attract people from Protestant communities, that therefore there must be an issue with welcoming and community in Protestant communities? Lizzie is arguing that Protestant congregations are better at welcoming and forging community that most Catholic parishes, a contention which seems hard to deny.
The Mission Young Adult Group, which met every Wednesday night, during almost all of the nineties and the very early 2000s, drew Catholics from all around the San Diego area, averaged 70 to 85+ per meeting.
If the Mission was the only a few Young Adult game in town, wasn’t it likely to have higher attendance? I’d argue that it’s better to have smaller but more numerous parish-based young adult groups.
Also, the Diocese only got its first full-time YA minister in 2015. For the previous five or so years that I was here, Carrie held the role as a part-time position. I’m suspicious about the claim that a part-time diocesan minister could be responsible for single-handedly killing a vibrant young adult community.
The content of the subject matter and its presentation was far superior to anything I’ve heard from recorded presentations of diocesan-run Theology of Tap meetings, which seemed to go downhill after the diocese took it over.
In what way were they superior?
Other social activities were far more frequent.
The Diocese YA Office have made it clear that they’re not a party-planning committee. Their job is to support local YA groups in their parishes. At last count, I think there were over fifty groups in the Diocese, which is far more than when I first got here. Even this week there’s a Theology On Tap in Imperial Valley, an area that has traditionally been neglected.
Now you have part of the diocesan bureaucracy devoted to Young Adults that hasn’t produced anything remotely comparable to that.
Well, if you’re looking for large events, the first few that come to mind are the Mega Mass (formerly named), the Young Adult Steubenville Conference, and the Christmas Gala. These are all new events and each attract hundreds of attendees.
I’m not saying the MYA was the only game in town. It wasn’t. I was citing that as just one example. In fact, there were more smaller gatherings at other parishes as well. My point is the way things were done back in the 1990s were reflective of subsidiarity and were done more at the parish level as opposed to being controlled by the diocese. It was far more vibrant on all levels back then than it seems to be now. Of course, I am no longer in the young adult age range, but from my observance, that’s what I see.
For one, if Protestant sects are vulnerable to cults than Catholics are, there must be an underlying social cause to that among other things.
Like I said from the outset, I don’t disagree with the overall thrust of Lizzie’s argument. I just think she overstates the contrast a bit. As far as what to do to rectify the problem? I certainly don’t know of a complete solution. But I think simple steps can go a long way.
My point is the way things were done back in the 1990s were reflective of subsidiarity and were done more at the parish level as opposed to being controlled by the diocese.
I don’t think you’ve shown that though.
For a start, how are you measuring activity today in order to know how to compare them? Aside from not being a Young Adult, if I’m right that there are far more Young Adult groups across the Diocese today than before, then there would be more *local* events, meaning that you’d be less likely to know about them.
You said that the Diocese has produced nothing comparable to the earlier days, yet I was able to point to three new major large-scale events which happen every year.
You also haven’t offered any evidence to show that it was the Diocese who ruined everything and you haven’t tried to explain how the appointment of a single part-time Diocesan employee managed to quash a vibrant Young Adult scene across the entire Diocese.
For one, if Protestant sects are vulnerable to cults than Catholics are, there must be an underlying social cause to that among other things.
The fact that cult groups can attract people from a range of backgrounds doesn’t prove much. However, it really is without question that your average Protestant congregation will do a far better job at welcoming newcomers than Catholic parishes. In every survey of former Catholics I’ve seen, this has been front-and-centre. It was fundamental to my own wanderings too. I think it’s hard to overstate this.
First, I would say say her using the word “Catholicism” as opposed to something like “Catholic social circles” is a bit careless. It’s a more important distinction than it might seem. But I guess that’s a different discussion for a different time.
To a great extent the social dynamics in Catholic circles tends to be clique-oriented.
She cites Scott Hahn. Another thing Hahn talks about is how he was shunned by Protestant friends when he converted to Catholicism. That’s a common problem Catholic converts from Protestantism face.
The problem Lizzie rightly decries is a far more more serious problem in mainline Protestant circles than she is letting on. I will give her the benefit of the doubt and say she is probably unaware. This is something many survivors of the People’s Temple cult experienced in Protestant congregations. For those who may be unaware of who the People’s Temple cult were, they were the cult that were forced to commit mass suicide by drinking cyanide-laced kool aid (that’s where the line “Drinking the Kool Aid” comes from) in Jonestown (named after its leader Jim Jones) in Guyana. What attracted these people to People’s Temple was the sense of belong they felt in contrast to their previous mainline Protestant congregations. It was a means to suck people in.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FQ-FkTLPrAw
I find it interesting that she says Latin Mass communities are more socially open. In the Latin Mass there is absolutely no social interaction between congregants during the liturgy. This is something I think Novus Ordo parishes should emulate. Efforts to make the Mass more social not only haven’t produced the desired effect, I think it contributed to the opposite effect in addition to being annoying and contrived.
The after mass coffee socials take place after earlier masses as opposed to evening masses. That’s certainly understandable.
At least here in San Diego, the diocese taking over things like Young Adult ministries have contributed to the problem. In my view it has created more bureaucracy than social harmony. It was much better, although not perfect, when groups of this nature were created independently and worked in conjunction parish pastors. Going back to that model when be a step in the right direction.
She qualifies what she means at the beginning of the video. I don’t think it’s a big deal.
No more so than any other community I’ve been part of. In fact, I’d say it’s probably a bit better than most.
What makes you think it’s a more serious problem in mainline Protestant circles? That’s definitely not my experience.
I’d agree. They tend to take parish life and after-Mass activities seriously. It’s the same among the Byzantines.
San Diego has one of the most active Young Adult communities in the country, in no small part to Diocesan efforts. There are groups which exist today which would not have started without the help of the Diocese. How do you think they have contributed to the problem?
Qualification notwithstanding, the careless use of terminology is still not productive. I would say given the Protestant communities shunning those who convert to Catholicism as well as the stated experience of former People’s Temple members and others who get sucked into cults from Protestant sects, is a clear indication that the problem is more prevalent in Protestant communities than she is letting on.
I would agree that the clique-oriented social dynamics in many Catholic circles mirrors much of that of social circles in the world at large.
The young adult communities here in San Diego in the 1990s, despite its problems, was far better than what it is now.
I’m not sure why you’re bringing this up. The issue isn’t over how a congregation/denomination treats those who have left, but how Catholics treat their own.
In what way were they far better?
Um, Protestant communities being more socially inclusive is foundational to LIzzie’s argument. So why wouldn’t I bring that up?
The Mission Young Adult Group, which met every Wednesday night, during almost all of the nineties and the very early 2000s, drew Catholics from all around the San Diego area, averaged 70 to 85+ per meeting . Many meetings drew 100+. The content of the subject matter and its presentation was far superior to anything I’ve heard from recorded presentations of diocesan-run Theology of Tap meetings, which seemed to go downhill after the diocese took it over. Other social activities were far more frequent. There was also the Day at the Bay that ran the last Sunday of every month from early spring to late summer. Diocesan involvement in this was limited to scant promoting of these events.
Now you have part of the diocesan bureaucracy devoted to Young Adults that hasn’t produced anything remotely comparable to that.
Is your argument that, because cults can attract people from Protestant communities, that therefore there must be an issue with welcoming and community in Protestant communities? Lizzie is arguing that Protestant congregations are better at welcoming and forging community that most Catholic parishes, a contention which seems hard to deny.
If the Mission was the only a few Young Adult game in town, wasn’t it likely to have higher attendance? I’d argue that it’s better to have smaller but more numerous parish-based young adult groups.
Also, the Diocese only got its first full-time YA minister in 2015. For the previous five or so years that I was here, Carrie held the role as a part-time position. I’m suspicious about the claim that a part-time diocesan minister could be responsible for single-handedly killing a vibrant young adult community.
In what way were they superior?
The Diocese YA Office have made it clear that they’re not a party-planning committee. Their job is to support local YA groups in their parishes. At last count, I think there were over fifty groups in the Diocese, which is far more than when I first got here. Even this week there’s a Theology On Tap in Imperial Valley, an area that has traditionally been neglected.
Well, if you’re looking for large events, the first few that come to mind are the Mega Mass (formerly named), the Young Adult Steubenville Conference, and the Christmas Gala. These are all new events and each attract hundreds of attendees.
I’m not saying the MYA was the only game in town. It wasn’t. I was citing that as just one example. In fact, there were more smaller gatherings at other parishes as well. My point is the way things were done back in the 1990s were reflective of subsidiarity and were done more at the parish level as opposed to being controlled by the diocese. It was far more vibrant on all levels back then than it seems to be now. Of course, I am no longer in the young adult age range, but from my observance, that’s what I see.
For one, if Protestant sects are vulnerable to cults than Catholics are, there must be an underlying social cause to that among other things.
Like I said from the outset, I don’t disagree with the overall thrust of Lizzie’s argument. I just think she overstates the contrast a bit. As far as what to do to rectify the problem? I certainly don’t know of a complete solution. But I think simple steps can go a long way.
I don’t think you’ve shown that though.
For a start, how are you measuring activity today in order to know how to compare them? Aside from not being a Young Adult, if I’m right that there are far more Young Adult groups across the Diocese today than before, then there would be more *local* events, meaning that you’d be less likely to know about them.
You said that the Diocese has produced nothing comparable to the earlier days, yet I was able to point to three new major large-scale events which happen every year.
You also haven’t offered any evidence to show that it was the Diocese who ruined everything and you haven’t tried to explain how the appointment of a single part-time Diocesan employee managed to quash a vibrant Young Adult scene across the entire Diocese.
The fact that cult groups can attract people from a range of backgrounds doesn’t prove much. However, it really is without question that your average Protestant congregation will do a far better job at welcoming newcomers than Catholic parishes. In every survey of former Catholics I’ve seen, this has been front-and-centre. It was fundamental to my own wanderings too. I think it’s hard to overstate this.