Catholic Dating: “Pursuit”
Today’s post may be somewhat controversial, but I’d like to talk about this particular topic because it was an aspect of dating which most infuriated me in my early twenties.
In an earlier post, I spoke about a counterfeit, passive masculinity which one often finds within Christianity. However, thanks to writers such John Elridge and Jason Evert, there has been a growing shift with regards to the expected behaviour of men within the Church.
As a result, the ladies are encouraged to expect a lot more from the guys. Courageous valour, rather than niceness is the order of the day. Related to this, you hear constant mention of one word in particular, “pursuit”.
Today I would like to address some of the potential hazards with the idea of pursuit and suggest what can be done to safeguard against them.
What’s the difference between a boyfriend and a stalker?
I’d like to begin by saying that most guys, myself included, are pretty terrible at being clear and direct in our pursuit. We’ll often be friends with a girl in an ambiguous, not-quite-dating relationship. I spoke about this quite a bit in my Friends First post.
However, I must point out to the ladies that you should be careful what you wish for… There is a very fine line between “pursuing” and “stalking”…
If you own a pair of these….it’s probably ‘stalking’
In fact, as Nathan pointed out in an earlier comment, the only real difference between a creeper and a boyfriend is simply whether or not the lady wants to be pursued by that particular guy.
Never give up. Never Surrender!
In the last ten years, a particular scenario in my life has played itself out…well…let’s just say more than once…
Some time ago, there was a girl in whom I was romantically interested and, after hanging out in various groups, I started inviting her to events where there would be fewer people, either a small group or just the two of us. I did this several times, but each time she gave excuses and, I’ve got to say, excuses which sounded less than convincing. After a while, I gave up. I had repeatedly created opportunities for her to get to know me better but she hadn’t taken them up. I concluded that she wasn’t interested in me, so I stopped asking.
Quite some time later we somehow ended up having an honest conversation about the way we felt and, to my complete amazement, I found out that she had held some romantic interest in me too! Upon relaying the events from my perspective, she responded saying “You were meant to pursue me!”.
As I said, this sequence has repeated itself several times in my adult life. Since I’m the common factor here, there’s definitely some things to be done differently on my side, particularly with regards to communication. Having said that, I know I’m not alone here, having heard similar stories from other guys. In response to this, I wish to make a suggestion to the ladies…
Dropping a handkerchief
Suppose that, after some church event, a gentleman invites a lady to join him for dinner with perhaps a couple of friends. She replies with one of the following responses:
“Sorry, it’s been a really long day at work and I have to get up early tomorrow…”
“Sorry, I already have plans…”
“Sorry, I need to get home to give my cat her medicine…”
All of these are plausible reasons as to why she may not be able to join them for dinner. Equally, however, these responses could all very well be made-up excuses so that she can escape the weirdo who keeps inviting her to stuff!
No man wants to be thought of as a stalker. No chap wants to be that guy who can’t take a hint. In an earlier post I urged the guys to consider how their actions might be incorrectly interpreted and today it’s the ladies’ turn. Here is my suggestion…ladies, if a guy invites you to something and you legitimately can’t make it, but you would like him to ask you again some other time, after you’ve made your apology, why not say the following?
“It’s a real shame I can’t make it. I’d love to go some other time.”
That little bit of encouragement is all that’s needed – he will try again.
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Meant to pursue, absolutely yes… but it’s not a game in which we are to be strung along.
The key problem with the whole “meant to pursue” thing is (as you say) the difficulty of telling whether or not the woman wants to be pursued. Few women are nice enough to say “no” flat out. (That’s right ladies, from a man’s perspective it is nicer to cut us off firmly.) My general experience is that maybe just about always means no. If I ask three times, and she’s still too busy, I move on.
Also, David, after she says “I’d love to go some other time,” the appropriate response is “When?” Nail down a calendar date if at all possible.
Personally, I’m fine with it being the man’s job to initiate, but I am opposed to the expectation that I’m supposed to chase a woman and she is supposed to run away (even if she likes me). It smells of dishonesty and game playing.
I think the whole “tease” thing is pretty rare. I’d suggest that
99%95% of the time it’s just down to poor communication, either (a) she thought I’d got the hint that she wasn’t interested or (b) I misinterpreted the excuses for disinterest.I’m not sure how common it is, especially in the Catholic community. However, apparently it happened to you at least once, and I’ve heard (elsewhere) women being given the advice that they should make the man chase her. My primary goal here is to counteract that advice.
Yeah, “chase” implies that she’s running away. Sorry, if you’re running away, I’m not chasing after you…
> Personally, I’m fine with it being the man’s job to initiate, but I am opposed to the expectation that I’m supposed to chase a woman and she is supposed to run away (even if she likes me). It smells of dishonesty and game playing.
It’s the standard of romance which is set in kindergarten!
I’m convinces we should all carry around signs, kinda like Sheldon’s sarcasm sign. With “flirting” “not interested” “try again later” and “Get back in the friend zone”
GENIUS!
GSYAM had this inside joke a long while back… the guy is climbing a mountain to reach the girl. The hardships, the effort, the struggles. For encouragement the girl figuratively can throw down a rope to help the guy up the mountain if they choose to.
Things escalated quickly… things being suggested to throw down the assist went from rope to helicopters. And in the fun spirit of “one-uping”, there were man-up claims of carrying the said helicopter up the mountain.
From a female perspective asking a girl to come to a group event (even if it is just a few other people) it not necessarily a date. It allows for the confusion game. I understand wanting to get to know each other in a group setting but if you are romantically interested in her ask her out on a DATE! On the flip-side I agree that women should be clear on their intentions and not make excuses.
I’m not suggesting that a group event is a date. For a guy, inviting a lady to hang out in a group is an easy way to test the water before taking the plunge and asking her out properly.
The key part in this article is “I had repeatedly created opportunities for her to get to know me better but she hadn’t taken them up. I concluded that she wasn’t interested in me, so I stopped asking.”
If a guy is inviting a lady to various group events and she keeps turning him down, she shouldn’t be surprised if he not only stops inviting her to events, but also if he never asks her out on a date. If she seemed unwilling to accept an invitation to hang out in a group, he’ll reason that she’s rather unlikely to accept an invitation for a date.
In this article I’m suggesting a small modification to the lady’s response which will encourage the guy to keep trying (if that’s what she wants).
I hadn’t noticed this detail. My negative comments about women being ambiguous only applies if it a date. If it is a group event I’d still prefer a yes or no answer, but I don’t take it as a rejection if a woman says no. Sure I’d love if everyone woman (and man) wanted to come to my philosophy club, but it is a rather large commitment for her to make unless she actually wants to do it, independent of any possibility that I might actually ask her on a date at some indeterminate point in the future. If she is too busy to go to your group events, and you’d like to get to know her better, it is your obligation to go to her group events.
> “Sure I’d love if everyone woman (and man) wanted to come to my philosophy club”
I was thinking more along the lines of light social events, such as drinks/dinner after Mass etc.
>If she is too busy to go to your group events, and you’d like to get to know her better, it is your obligation to go to her group events.
hmmm….while I agree in principle, that could come across as a little stalker-ish.
Also, I’d suggest that part of the point in inviting the lady to events isn’t just to get to know her better, it’s to try and determine whether or not she wants to get to know you better.
Oh hey this is a good one. I’d suggest that there’s a good amount of fear on the girl’s part, too, that accounts for the running away.
Well, if fear causes her to run away from a casual group hangout, she’s also going to run away from a date invitation, right?
Actually on the fear comment, I know of some cases that the group setting is more fearful for the individual (guy or girl) than an one-on-one setting. Entering a new social circle is more daunting for some.
Not necessarily. It’s a lot safer to be in a situation when the guy’s interest is clear. Rather than wondering what ifs and fearing that she will get emotionally attached to no avail. Especially if she was already romantically interested, like in the story you shared.
So here’s the situation: the guy has some interest in the girl. The girl has some interest in the guy. They don’t know each other well.
The guy invites the girl to hang out with him and his friends to get some pizza after Mass. She said no. He invites her to several other meetups but, for the reasons you give above, she has said no to these too.
Sooo….now what?
In your mind, how is this deadlock to be broken? Is the guy just meant to go for it and ask this girl out on a date? If a girl has repeatedly turned down opportunities to spend time with me I’m unlikely to think she’ll want to go on a date with me. Rejection seems likely.
….having said that, I probably should say that it isn’t always the case.
A while ago, I really wanted to get to know one particular lady, but our schedules just never seemed to intersect. She didn’t come to the events I organized and I generally couldn’t make it to the ones I knew she typically went to.
In the end I just went ahead and asked her out. It just seemed the simplest thing to do. I’m typically not that brave. I must have recently watched Gladiator or something 😉
That’s a good point. And I don’t know how it was in that situation described above. And your conclusion was pretty rational. I just wanted to point out that fear could play a role, and it’s not that the girl was playing games like the above commenter implied.
>I just wanted to point out that fear could play a role, and it’s not that the girl was playing games like the above commenter implied.
Fair enough, but what can be done to fix the situation? What can the guy do to help reduce the fear factor?
What I liked about this article is that you pointed out that the woman has to make an effort, too. Which I guess included overcoming fear. But isn’t this where the guy “takes courage?” That’s what you did and even said “that seemed the simplest thing to do.”
With the last guy I dated, he just purposefully hung out with me one-on-one (after we’ve seen each other sporadically here and there at various events). I wasn’t initially interested in him and had he beat around the bush inviting me to one event after another, I might’ve not really put that much effort into it myself and would be less likely to acquiesce. But he because I was clear about his intentions, there was less “what ifs” involved and I was just curious to see how it will all unfold.
> But isn’t this where the guy “takes courage?”
If you run yourself a bath do you just jump in? No, you dip your toe in first to test the water – you don’t want to get burned. Likewise, with asking someone out you want to test the temperature of the water, so-to-speak.
Getting shut down isn’t fun, so if I’m going to ask someone out, call me a wuss if you will, but I’d like to know that I stand a reasonable chance of not getting rejected. If a girl has turned down all my invitations to social events, why should I expect she’ll say “yes” to a date?
As I wrote earlier, no guy wants to be thought of as a stalker, but if responsibility is placed completely on the guy, that’s exactly what’ll happen since it’s asking the guys to completely disregard the lady’s behaviour (or “signs”, if you wish).
> That’s what you did and even said “that seemed the simplest thing to do.”
I did (although I didn’t say it ended well…), but I’d suggest this is kinda rare. I was asking out a girl I didn’t know that well, which I think most of us would agree is less than ideal. Ideally, we’d like to get to know someone better before moving things forward.
> But he because I was clear about his intentions, there was less “what ifs” involved and I was just curious to see how it will all unfold.
The point is that you had opportunity to hang out together in a larger group and were open to spending time together. This post is speaking to the situation where that doesn’t happen.
Ladies, if a guy you like asks you out, just go out with him. No games, no BS, no string-alongs. If it works out and you hit it off, great! If it doesn’t, great! At least you’ve given each other a chance and can move on.
I know I’m at a place in my life where if I even get a hint of this relational tomfoolery, I’m out, it’s simply not worth the time and effort.
Too much of this precious life is wasted over this sort of nonsense and girls wonder why guys won’t ask them out.
Peace!
I’ll be addressing this issue in my next (and final) post.
But what if the lady is 90% sure it wouldn’t work out and doesn’t want to string the guy along?
I’ll be talking about this more in the next article (which I’ll post fairly soon), but since you brought it up…
Not wanting to “string the guy along” is an admirable goal, but I’d still suggest giving the guy a chance. In the above case, you still have a 10% chance that this could be the first date with your future husband! I’d say those are odds worth taking. You never know, he may even surprise you…
In simplest terms, accepting the date is just taking a couple of hours out of a week to get to know a fellow Catholic a little better, and that’s always a good thing. You don’t have to accept a second date if that’s not what you want and, even if it doesn’t go to a second date, since you’ve got to know him better, you might think of a girlfriend with whom he would be a better fit! Everyone wins 🙂
What do you have to lose?
“if a guy you like asks you out”
Ah – I missed the “you like” part of that and just read “if a guy asks you out” and wondered why I should torment myself with every *maybe*. I especially hate it when I know I’ve crushed someone – makes me less likely to even want to try again. I can take it when my heart is on the line – but when I know I’ve hurt another it burns.
Probably why I struggle with saying “no”, and instead change the topic or give lame excuses.
Good article, David. Gentlemen, as we shave or brush our teeth, looking into the mirror, we should also prepare ourselves to ask “her” out*. A confident self introduction, warm smile, and “I would like to get to know you. Can we meet for coffee/tea/drink later this week or next?”
*I am absolved, in religious life.
Tea. Always tea.
This is actually the hardest thing for me as a lady. At what point am I giving not enough signals versus too many. We’re always more at ease around the guys we are definitely NOT interested in. For the guys I am interested in there is this endless cycle of “am I flirting enough to seem interested without appearing like a teen who’s just run into the latest heartthrob.”
Also, there is the fear of pushing a guy away by being too available, especially at last minute. “Hey do you want to come to my party tonight?” Um no, you should have asked me at least two days ago. If I say yes now you’ll think I have no life and/or am not worth perusing. But if I say no then you’ll think I’m not interested, when I am actually very interested.
“If I say yes now you’ll think I have no life and/or am not worth perusing.”
No. Are there any men watching this thread who think this?
I wouldn’t.
> At what point am I giving not enough signals versus too many…
That’s a bit more of a complicated issue. In this post I’m just making the point that, if a guy you like invites you to something and you really can’t make it, let him know that you’d like him to try again.
> “Hey do you want to come to my party tonight?”
There are a few possible reasons for this: (a) he’s just plain disorganized (b) he’s trying to keep it casual (c) he got a little brave at the last minute (d) he’s not really romantically interested.
Whether you choose to go or not is up to you, but if you decide not to go, I’d suggest saying the following:
“Sorry, that sounds like fun, but that’s a bit too short notice – I already have plans. If you can let me know a little more in advance next time, I’d love to come”
The door has been left open and (to mix metaphors) the ball is in his court.
“Flirting enough to seem interested” would comprise of making good conversation, both listening (and remembering what he said) as well as sharing small things about yourself, e.g. hobbies, fav’ places. If the guy is worth his salt he will ask you out to a place you would be interested in, based on what you enjoy doing.
As for avoiding the teen heartthrob extreme, simply try to contain yourself. By going into real dialogue, you will avoid the one-way flattery that has characterized teen idol worship from Elvis to NKOTB to J. Bieber.
Certainly, it is harder to remain calm when we like someone. Be assured it’s the same for us guys, too. Imagine yourself in conversation, what you would want the other to know about you, what you would want to know about him. You can do this! Godspeed!
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