Catholic Dating: Not wanting to be “that guy”
In recent posts I’ve been sharing my thoughts about the question often asked by Catholic females, “Why doesn’t that nice Catholic boy ask me out?”
In my last post I wrote about how the fear of rejection plays a significant part in the answer to this question. In addition, I suggested that a warped sense of Christian masculinity contributes to the problem and that all this is exacerbated by the close communal nature of faith groups.
Today I’d like to continue looking at this issue and examine briefly another of the reasons why Catholic guys tend not to ask out Catholic girls as often as they perhaps should. In today’s post I would propose that guys sometimes fail to do so because they don’t want to be that guy.
In each Catholic community I’ve belonged to, there has always been that guy. You know who I mean? I’m talking about the player. He’s the guy who’s always scanning the pews at the Young Adult Mass or Bible Study, keeping an eye out for any new arrivals. As soon as a new girl turns up, you can guarantee he’ll be the one jumping in to offer her a warm welcome to the parish…which’ll quite likely involve a dinner and a romantic drive by sunset beach…
If you’re a Catholic guy looking for a nice Catholic girl then a Catholic parish is an obvious place to find her. However, there is something a little tacky about going to church on Sunday morning in order to get a date for Saturday night. I would suggest that the gregarious actions of those guys who treat their parish like a free version of CatholicMatch.com have the negative effect on other Catholic men. The guy who is serious about his faith, who goes to Mass because he wants to worship God will often feel uncomfortable about pursuing a girl at church, especially after seeing the local parish’s “player” in action.
As with my previous post, I think that the solution to this issue is fairly straight-forward: be brave. Gentlemen, don’t let the actions of a few creepy guys cause you to embrace lifelong celibacy too quickly! Instead, see it as an opportunity to set a good example for these guys and to demonstrate a better quality of friendship and courtship.
So what do you think? Agree? Disagree? What can be done here?
The article Catholic Dating: Not wanting to be “that guy” first appeared on RestlessPilgrim.net
Great stuff David! I guess i never thought of the young men’s point of view but I am glad you bring it up! I am one of those girls who has been pursued by the wolf in sheep’s clothing at the young adult group but turned it down. I see young adult groups more for the experience of growing in my faith but if I were to meet someone great then that is welcomed too.
Girls do get frustrated with men not making moves but we must remember that the pursuing is for the men to do, not the other way around, which society has changed a little I think. Thank you for sharing your input…you are one smart guy! Best regards- Kathleen Donnelly
Hey Kathleen, thanks and welcome to Restless Pilgrim 🙂
(I’ll have some words about the issue of “pursuit” later in the series)
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To turn the tables a bit: I think many Christian guys fail to ask ladies out on dates not because they don’t want to BE that guy, but because they’d prefer not to be LABELED that guy, i.e. a “player.”
I think “player” has taken on an overly broad meaning in the Christian community, especially as it is used by Christian women. A guy who grabs lunch with different women with greater frequency than the general population is not by definition a player. Now, if that guy is getting physical with those ladies (kissing, prolonged hugging, etc), then that’s different, and he could be accurately labeled a “player.” But a respectful lunch/dinner/coffee between a woman and a man who is practicing emotional modesty does not necessarily become the act of a “player” even if you multiply it many times over with different women. If a single dignified lunch with a lady =\= the act of a “player,” then a dignified lunch with X lady times 40 =\= the acts of a “player.” Similarly, a woman is not a slut if she merely says yes to 40 different guys to go on 40 dates over 40 weeks if she behaved respectfully and morally on each date. (BTW – I never label women sluts regardless of the facts, but that’s a different story.)
If ladies want to be asked out on dates, then we need to create a culture of dating. And a culture of dating requires the ladies to not label guys “players” simply because they ask multiple women out over multiple weeks. Frankly, I think some women label some gentlemen “players” not because those guys did anything objectively wrong or immoral, but because those women feel rejected when they’re not asked out again, and blaming the guy by branding him a player soothes their fragile egos.
This might be a good time to reflect on one other label often given to men, that of “creeper.” “Players” and “Creepers” do exist in the Christian community, but both terms are inappropriately used by women from time to time to socially punish certain men. Some men labeled “creepers” aren’t actually creepy, they’re just undesired for whatever reason (looks, awkwardness, etc). And for this, and only this, they are labeled “creepers.” That doesn’t seem fair.
This brings to mind a joke I made up: What’s the difference between a creeper and a boyfriend. Answer: Success.
Labeling a guy a “player” is similar to labeling a guy a “creeper” except that we’re talking about men on opposite ends of the spectrum. For some women with regards to certain men, the difference between “an eligible bachelor” and a “player” is that the latter has rejected you, nothing more.
Now, all that being said, many guys really are creepers or players, so ladies have to be on their guard. And good guys shouldn’t use certain women’s imprudence as an excuse for inaction (or too much action!).
> I think many Christian guys fail to ask ladies out on dates not because they don’t want to BE that guy, but because they’d prefer not to be LABELED that guy, i.e. a “player.”
I would suggest it’s both, neither does he want to become “that guy” nor does he want to be incorrectly labelled as such.
> I think “player” has taken on an overly broad meaning in the Christian community, especially as it is used by Christian women.
Agreed. I remember an incident at a parish I attended in England which demonstrates this point nicely.
One of our youth ministers had been dating one of the other members of the youth ministry. They dated for several months and then broke up. After about four months, she started dating one of the guys in the music ministry.
I remember be a little scandalized by this, until I asked myself why. I mean, it’s not exactly a shocking newspaper headline, is it?
DATING SHOCK! AFTER BREAKING UP WITH BOYFRIEND, WOMAN DATES NEW GUY!
I think my admittedly over-the-top reaction stemmed from the community nature of faith groups and the fact that I knew all the parties involved.
> A guy who grabs lunch with different women with greater frequency than the general population is not by definition a player.
I concur.
>Now, if that guy is getting physical with those ladies (kissing, prolonged hugging, etc), then that’s different, and he could be accurately labeled a “player.”
Agreed. I would say that if things have become physical we’ve moved from “dating” into “courtship” and, as such, the relationship should be exclusive.
Both from the comments on this blog and from conversations I’ve had over the last week, I think it’s clear that there’s a need for a post looking at definition of terms, since some people use the words “dating”, “courtship” etc. with very different meanings.
>But a respectful lunch/dinner/coffee between a woman and a man who is practicing emotional modesty does not necessarily become the act of a “player” even if you multiply it many times over with different women.
I agree with this…up to a point. If a guy’s social calendar is nothing but a slew of private lunches/dinners/coffees with single ladies then I’d suggest that someone might need to take a step back and practise a little bit of discernment…
>If ladies want to be asked out on dates, then we need to create a culture of dating. And a culture of dating requires the ladies to not label guys “players” simply because they ask multiple women out over multiple weeks.
Absolutely.
Frankly, I think some women label some gentlemen “players” not because those guys did anything objectively wrong or immoral, but because those women feel rejected when they’re not asked out again, and blaming the guy by branding him a player soothes their fragile egos.
I’m sure this has some truth to it, but I would suggest that poor communication and incorrect expectations make up a larger part of it.
If the guy regards a date simply as an opportunity to get to know the girl better but the girl regards the date as a proposal of marriage, then when the guy doesn’t ask her out again he won’t regard it as a big deal whereas she will.
> Some men labeled “creepers” aren’t actually creepy, they’re just undesired for whatever reason (looks, awkwardness, etc). And for this, and only this, they are labeled “creepers.” That doesn’t seem fair.
Absolutely.
>This brings to mind a joke I made up: What’s the difference between a creeper and a boyfriend. Answer: Success.
Classic Poe 😉
Gentlemen, this chap somehow managed to get Pam Diaz, yes, the Pam Diaz, to date him – he has to be doing something right…
BAZINGA!
I agree! Thank you for this post David. Why would Catholic guys be afraid to be labeled as “that guy”? If you are not, then don’t be afraid. All you have to do is to prove to them that you are not. 🙂
Hey Erin, thanks for your input and welcome to Restless Pilgrim 🙂
I see that David is writing about this subject again, and it seems to be stirring up some discussions as it should.
On the subject of “that guy”, I have say that if David’s advice it taken too far (or incorrectly) it would most likely make a guy “that guy”. I feel that the most important thing in to keep in mind is intent.
Like attending to Mass, the intent is to go worship God. I feel that the personal intent of the guy in dating situation needs to be correct. The challenge is not to seek just a significant other to provide love (in whatever form) to satisfy an individual’s desire, but to truly give and receive love as God loves. Fancy words and all that, but I guess it boils down to bring each other closer to Christ in every action we do.
I’m not saying that even with the right intent and it will be a smooth ride. But with the correct intent going in (and possibly out) of anything even if things don’t work out, spiritual growth for all parties involved and those on the side watching.
All good stuff. Thanks Tien 🙂
Or maybe we don’t want to ask a girl out as a friend because we are more afraid she’ll accept the offer and think it’s a date. Sometimes guys don’t ask girls out because she’s not “the one” for him.
Hey Martin,
Your comment raises the interesting issue regarding definition of terms. In these posts when I say “ask out” I’m using it as shorthand for “ask out on a date”, rather than simply a purely platonic meeting of friends. I think I might do another post at the end of this series on this issue since I think this is probably a source of much miscommunication in this area.
I’ll be looking at your last point in the post entitled “Occam’s Razor”.
Thanks,
David.
What if: instead of asking girls out for a tete a tete, a nice Catholic guy not wanting to be “that guy” became the Man instead – meaning, the Man who arranges for groups of people to all hang out together? Be the Bingley who throws the Ball, eh? This is what we did in college and after. Seemed to work. People paired up or not, and everyone made actual friends in the meantime, in non-creepy settings (what’s less creepy than a Rosary-making party?).
My husband joined choir and kept to himself, not wanting to be “that guy”. So he made friends instead. Actual friends, not “prospective girlfriends whom I call friends in order not to be creepy”. I was one of those friends. After a couple of years, it changed. He made some cautious moves (“you need to go to Ikea? So do I?!”). Maybe i broke this new “girls never speak up” etiquette, but I was the first to actually say something, which was, “So, you know something’s going on, I know something’s going on, all our friends know something’s going on, so let’s talk about it.” Ten years later, we’ve been married seven years and have two kids.
Prior to this, we had both, independently, entrusted our cares about marriage to a saint: he to St. Therese and me to St. Raphael, so as not to be among those who are “on the hunt”.
So pray and let it rest, make friends, and hang out. If you’re looking for love in all the wrong places, you’re at risk for giving on a creepy, desperate vibe and alienating people who might have been your friends. If you’re just trying to make friends and are open to a friendship developing into something else, then, worst case scenario, you’ve made friends.
Just my opinion…
>What if: instead of asking girls out for a tete a tete… arrange[d] for groups of people to all hang out together?
I’m completely on-board with this. I am. I think this is a good way to go about things. However, I’d like to say a few things.
It does depend upon the size of the group. If the group is large it’s hard to get to know someone well since people will more likely have their “public face” on and social events. Personally, I hate large groups anyway, they make me want to run away and hide.
Although a group setting is a great way to begin to get to know someone, there are some pitfalls to avoid, a few of which I describe in the Friends First post.
The only other thing I’d say is that sometimes when I’ve tried to arrange to hang out in a group in order to get to know a certain lady, the scheduling just hasn’t worked out because of work or some other commitment. After happening a few times, rather than wait forever for an opportunity to hang out together in a group, I’ve just stepped up and told her that I’d like to get to know her better and asked her out. Not ideal, sure, but to the point 🙂
Hey! Catholic girl here. I have a question. I read another comment saying that women shouldn’t be the ones pursuing the men but I’m in a situation where I like a guy 7 years older than me. I am 19 he just turned 27. If this man could possibly be my vocation, how should I then let him know that I like him, so that he can approach me more? I don’t think he would approach me in a romantic way because of how young I am. And we don’t really know each other that well. The only way I can think of being with him is giving him hints that I like him and giving him compliments. But at the same time I don’t really know him that well but I do want to get to know him. And if I end up liking his personality, I’ll tell him straight up. Is that bad? What do you think?
It may well be that he does like you romantically but not pursuing you not only because of the age gap, but also because of your age – there’s quite a difference between someone who has just left High School and someone who has been living a regular adult life for a decade…
Given that you don’t seem to know him that well, engineer some time together in a small group and get to know him better first.
Welp.. I think I’m “that guy” in my catholic social circle. 😔
I have a strong desire to be in a relationship and eventual marriage. I am also pretty bold and courageous in general, so I have had no problem asking women out on dates, while most other men really struggle with that. Over the last 6 or so years (I’m 31 now) I have been on many dates with various girls in my catholic social circle. Most of these have been cordial and ended with either me or her gently letting the other know it wasn’t going to work out after 1 or 2 dates. But, a few years ago I did have a couple of situations end badly, through mostly my own fault. I had some unresolved rejection trauma and when I was rejected I reacted rather immaturely.
Unfortunately, word of these situations have spread across the catholic social circle and now I feel like my reputation precedes me everywhere I go. I have also heard from friends that I have a reputation of “asking a lot of girls out” and “being desperate to find a wife.” Yikes.
I have had numerous experiences where I meet a new girl and begin talking with her, only later to be randomly blocked. I often come to find out later that there was a connection between the new girl and one of the girls things ended badly with. It doesn’t help that the 2 girls things ended badly with are social butterflies.
Another unfortunate thing is that a false rumor went around about me recently that was pretty shocking. The rumor was that I prayed over a girl at a young adult event and then told her “God told me we should date.” Yikes. I never did that. I wasn’t even at that prayer meeting. I found out who actually did it though. Somehow my name got attributed to the event.
It’s very discouraging and disheartening that this reputation precedes me, especially the rumors that aren’t true. I haven’t asked out a girl in a while, and am much more hesitant to do so in the catholic circles. I have also done some deeper work on myself over the last few years to heal the rejection trauma. But it seems that once people have labeled someone, that label never really goes away. I would have thought catholics would be more forgiving of people, but I’ve actually experienced some of the most ruthless judgment inside the church than out. I honestly feel sometimes like I have a scarlet letter on my chest. Anytime I walk into a young adult group or interact with young adults after mass I always have this lurking feeling that people are thinking negative things about me that they may have heard. It’s not fun.
In my relationship with God through all of this… one lesson I think he is trying to teach me is to not care what other people think. I need to just be myself and know who I am (which is a good man with good intentions) and carry on. Jesus himself had a bad reputation… “can anything good come from Nazareth?”
The other lesson it taught me is to not believe every rumor you hear and to treat other people who may have been labeled one way or another with kindness. Sometimes people are remembered for their mistakes despite that they have a lot of other great qualities and accomplishments.
I gotta say though, this whole situation has really done a number on my confidence. And it has definitely sucked the life out of my hopes of finding a catholic wife, at least in my area. I have had thoughts of moving to a new city and starting over. But my whole life is here, including my career, family, friends, etc. I don’t think moving is something I’m going to do, at least not for a while. I’m not sure what I could do to make this situation better. I’m open to suggestions.
That’s tough man. Aside from giving it some time, it might be an idea to look further afield, outside of your local community, through CatholicChemistry or CatholicMatch.