PWJ: S1E44 – LWW – “The Lion, the Witch and the Wardrobe”

New book this week! Since The Lamp-post Listener have finished going through “The Lion, the Witch and the Wardrobe”, Matt and I thought we would devote an episode to discussing the themes and ideas found in this fantasy work which we see taught didactically in Mere Christianity. Since Matt hadn’t read the Chronicles of Narnia, it was also a perfect opportunity to begin to correct his deficient education…

Please send any objections, comments or questions, either via email through the new website or tweet us @pintswithjack or message us via Instagram!

Episode 44: The Lion, the Witch and the Wardrobe (Download)

Show Notes

• The quote-of-the-week from from the book itself:

“I’ve come at last,” said he. “She has kept me out for a long time, but I have got in at last. Aslan is on the move. The Witch’s magic is weakening.”

– Father Christmas in “The Lion, the Witch and the Wardrobe”

• The drink-of-the-week was Glenmorangie Nectar d’Or.

• We are very proud to announce that www.PintsWithJack.com is now launched, together with our new YouTube channel! Please “like” and subscribe!

On the new website there is a three-question feedback form at the bottom of the Podcast page. It would really help us if you could fill out it!

• In response to finding out that Matt hadn’t read The Chronicles of Narnia, our listener, Patience, expressed concern over Matt’s spiritual welfare:

Matt needs serious help…I was cringing throughout the “who inspired Puddleglum” and “what is a silver chair” bits…how it hurt my heart! I don’t understand, how could he only have read CSL’s scholarly works? I think a temporary revoking of his CSL fan card may be in order until he gets his act together, haha!

– Patience

• The Lamp-post Listener podcast does a terrific job of working through the Chronicles of Narnia chapter by chapter, so rather than doing that, we’re just going to devote one episode to go through The Lion, the Witch and the Wardrobe, particularly focussing on the the presence of theology which Lewis has set out in Mere Christianity.

• I explained that Lewis didn’t regard The Lion, the Witch and the Wardrobe as allegory. Rather, he called it an “imaginative supposal”:

If Aslan represented the immaterial Deity, he would be an allegorical figure. In reality however he is an invention giving an imaginary answer to the question, “What might Christ become like if there really were a world like Narnia and He chose to be incarnate and die and rise again in that world as He actually has done in ours?”  This is not allegory at all. So in Perelandra. This also works out a supposition. . . . Allegory and such supposals differ because they mix the real and the unreal in different ways.

– C.S. Lewis, Letter to Mrs. Hook

I explained that Lewis also said that communicating truth in this way allowed him to get past the “watchful dragons”:

I thought I saw how stories of this kind could steal past a certain inhibition which had paralysed much of my own religion in childhood. Why did one find it so hard to feel as one was told one ought to feel about God or the sufferings of Christ? I thought the chief reason was that one was told one ought to. An obligation to feel can freeze feelings. And reverence itself did harm. The whole subject was associated with lowered voices; almost as if it were something medical. But supposing that by casting all these things into an imaginary world, stripping them of their stained-glass and Sunday School associations, one could make them for the first time appear in their real potency? Could one not thus steal past those watchful dragons? I thought one could.

– C.S. Lewis, Sometimes Fairy Stories May Say Best What’s to be Said

•  We then go through the story of The Lion, the Witch and the Wardrobe. SPOILERS AHEAD!!!

Lucy enters the Wardrobe

•  Lucy forgives Mr. Tumnus and has faith that he will not go through with his original evil plan. He is transformed by Lucy’s love.

Edmund arrives in Narnia

• Regarding the witch, I was reminded of the passage in Mere Christianity where Lewis reminds us that Satan is a fallen angel and that the better and more powerful something is, the worse it can become.

Matt commented that the reverse is also true, that the worst of sinners can become the greatest of Saints.

•  I commented that many people are disappointed eating Turkish delight after reading Lewis’ description of it.  I pointed out that this is entirely appropriate because this is what sin is like – it seems attractive, but leaves us disappointed.

• I pointed out that Edmunds sins get worse over the course of this book, beginning with the fleshly (“animal” as Lewis calls them) sins, such as gluttony, and then graduating to the more dangerous, spiritual sins, such as pride.  This also connected to the idea of “heavenly and hellish creatures”, how the small decisions we make compound over time and transform us.

• We suggested that Edmund’s betrayal of Lucy when they get back to our world was due to his pride and how he had trained himself to be naturally nasty.

Meeting with the Professor

•  The Professor argues for the truth of Lucy’s story in the same way that Lewis argues for the Divinity of Christ using his “Lunatic, Lord or Liar” trilemma.

Everyone arrives in Narnia

•  I commented that I preferred the Peter of the book, rather than the movie – he’s far quicker to apologise to Lucy. I said that I showed some of the kids who come to our bookclub the BBC adaptation of the book and they found it hilarious.

Matt commented how much more slowly the movie moves in comparison to the book. I said that if listeners wanted a more in depth comparison of the two, they should check out NarniaWeb.com and the Talking Beasts podcast.

Meeting the Beavers

•  Matt compared the children’s decision to go with Mr. Beaver to the decision someone might make to become a Christian. 100% certainty might not be available to you, so you need to go where the evidence points and trust. He drew upon a description found in A Severe Mercy.

•  Edmund can’t enjoy the Beaver’s food. I suggest that this could be compared to what sin/vice do to us. Virtue prepares us to enjoy Heaven, whereas vice hurts our ability to appreciate things which are truly good. Matt compared this to his experience of receiving the Eucharist.

• Edmund doesn’t want the stories about Aslan to be true. This reminded me of the chapter in Mere Christianity when Lewis says that every Christian encounters a moment when it would be very convenient for them for Christianity NOT to be true. 

Meeting Aslan

•  Aslan is described as “not a tame lion”. I compared this to Book 1 of Mere Christianity where Lewis speaks about the Moral Law and says that the author of this Law must hate a lot of the things we do.

•  When Aslan points out the castle of Cair Paravel, he is pointing him towards his greater destiny, just in the same way that we have a greater destiny beyond this world.

• When Susan is being attacked by Maugrim, despite being a magical horn, it is her brother who comes to her rescue. I compared this to the section in Mere Christianity where Lewis speaks about Christ helping us through other people. Peter manages to defeat Maugrim because he has no c 

The Animals eating Christmas Lunch

•  When the animals are turned to stone, Edmund begins to change his trajectory. He starts becoming humble, thinking of others rather than himself. He has tried to find joy through sin and it has shown its true colours.

Aslan is killed

•  We pointed out the obvious parallels (and dissimilarities) between the events of the Stone Table and Calvary. I noted that the description is closer to a substitutionary model of atonement, rather than Lewis’ “Perfect Penitent” which we find in Mere Christianity.

•  I focussed on Aslan’s sadness, yet determined choice to go to the Stone Table, which is an image of “faith” which Lewis describes as a continual choosing of the will, despite the assault of the emotions.

• We suggested that the “Deep Magic” is like the Moral Law from Book 1 of Mere Christianity, getting the just punishment for your actions. In contrast, the “Deeper Magic” is grace, the life of the Trinity which has existed since before the dawn of time. 

• We discussed how art, such as this book, can represent truths to us, to which we have grown numb. Matt mentioned going to the theatre to listen to Handel’s Messiah, a work I have sung as a treble, alto and bass.

The White Witch’s house

•  This material was covered on my guest appearance on The Lamp-post Listener.

• As the statues are brought to life, we see Pentecost (fire and wind), as well as The Harrowing of Hades. This is also a parallel to Lewis’ “tin soldiers” and the catching of the “good infection” from Christ. After receiving this life, they’re called to go and help others. 

• I quoted from the opening of the Book of Acts, pointing out that in Acts, Jesus is now working through His Church, continuing His mission described in Luke’s Gospel:

In the first book, O Theoph′ilus, I have dealt with all that Jesus began to do and teach, until the day when he was taken up

– Acts of the Apostles 1:1-2

The Battle

•  Peter and Edmund are fighting a losing battle, but they know that they have to give everything. In the same way that Jesus said “Be ye perfect”, there is to be no compromise with the forces of evil. Although Edmund was freely saved by Aslan from execution, it is now his response to join the fight with him.

•  It is Aslan who ultimately wins the battle.

Becoming Kings & Queens

•  The children are ultimately transformed, which reminded me of the transformation brought about by theosis.

•  Matt compared their transformation back into children to the returning from a retreat.

Talking to the Professor

•  As mentioned in an earlier episode, the Professor’s description of how they’ll recognize others who have had adventures in Narnia is very similar to Lewis’ description of how to recognize Saints.

•  I ended by sharing a letter which Lewis wrote to the mother of a child who was concerned that he loved Aslan more than Jesus:

Laurence can’t really love Aslan more than Jesus, even if he feels that’s what he is doing. For the things he loves Aslan for doing or saying are simply the things Jesus really did and said. So that when Laurence thinks he is loving Aslan, he is really loving Jesus: and perhaps loving Him more than he ever did before.

If I were Laurence I’d just say in my prayers something like this: “Dear God, if the things I’ve been thinking and feeling about those books are things You don’t like and are bad for me, please take away those feelings and thoughts. But if they are not bad, then please stop me from worrying about them. . . . And if Mr. Lewis has worried any other children by his books or done them any harm, then please forgive him and help him never to do it again”

– C. S. Lewis: Letters to Children, pp. 52-53