Empty chairs at empty altars: Part 2
Yesterday I began talking about an exchange I had with Mike, a sedevacantist gentleman who asserts that the Second Vatican Council was a heretical council…
A Future Restoration?
If one ascribed to Mike’s assessment of Catholicism, things really do look pretty bleak: virtually every Catholic has been excommunicated from the Church and, as a result, there are no priests or Sacraments. I was intrigued as to how Mike imagined this dire situation ever being resolved. I mean, if one held to his position, the New Covenant is in tatters! Wouldn’t Jesus need to come back to re-instute the papacy, the priesthood and the Sacraments? But this is a problem since we know that Jesus isn’t returning until His Second Coming. Here is what Mike had to say:
“I can’t tell you the nature of the Divine intercession by which the hierarchy of the Catholic Church will be restored, if this were God’s will”
Doesn’t it seem odd that Jesus would establish the Papacy, only to see it disappear from the earth with no possible way of being restored? In response to this question, Mike asked me why I trusted the Pope. I said that it’s simply because I trust Jesus Christ. He established Peter as the rock. He gave Peter the keys. If the papacy could survive Pope Alexander VI, I’m pretty sure it can survive Pope Benedict XVI!
Recognizing the Church
I asked Mike whether or not he had an objective way of identifying the Catholic Church and those in communion with Her. While waiting for his response, I explained how I identify the Catholic Church. Firstly, I recognize the Church through the bishops….
“Where the bishop is, there let the people also be; just as where Jesus Christ is, there is the Catholic Church” – St. Ignatius to the Smyrnaeans
…and, more importantly, through the successor of Peter…
“If someone does not hold fast to this unity of Peter, can he imagine that he still holds the faith? If he [should] desert the chair of Peter upon whom the Church was built, can he still be confident that he is in the Church?” – St. Cyprian of Carthage, The Unity of the Catholic Church
I didn’t receive a response to this line of questioning…
Recognizing Restoration
I went on to ask Mike how he would know if, at some point in the future, the Catholic Church had been truly restored. Here’s the answer he gave:
“THE clear indication would be that the person in the restored Papacy would immediately and publicly inform the heretics (‘lutherans’, ‘methodists’, ‘evangelicals’, etc.) and the un-baptized pagans (‘muslims’, ‘jews’, ‘buddhists’, ‘hindus’, etc.) … that they are all headed for Hell with no exception.”
So, although Mike knows of no real way in which the Church could be restored, he feels pretty confident that if the Pope started damning a large proportion of the world, we’d be getting things back on track…
I found his position rather ironic. In Mike’s literature he spoke voluminously against the possibility of salvation for those not in formal, visible union with Catholic Church. What is bizarre about this is that, by most standards, Mike himself appears to be outside of visible communion with the Church…yet he would assert a hope of Heaven! Mike is effectively protesting at my hope of his salvation!
The Interpreter
Obviously, Mike and I disagreed over his interpretation of Catholic teaching, so I asked him who is the official interpreter of Catholic Dogma. His response put me in mind of a Sola Scriptura Christian:
“The Dogma doesn’t need ‘interpretation’… it is crystal clear with no ambiguity whatsoever … this is by the power of the Holy Spirit”
Doesn’t that sound like a fundamentalist speaking about the Bible? According to Mike, Catholic teaching is all very easy to understand. I guess the establishment of the Magisterium was apparently never really necessary! I asked him what the difference was between his position and that of a Protestant. A Protestant would contend that he is subject to the written Word of God, but in reality it is ultimately his own private, fallible interpretation. Couldn’t the same thing be said of Mike’s interpretation of the doctrines which he contends Vatican II violated?
I suppose it comes down to this: how far should a Catholic trust the successor of Peter and the Apostles and submit to them in obedience to Christ? At what point does the individual Catholic have the right to disobey the Pope and the Bishops and declare them all heretics?
Again, I received no response to this line of questioning…
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