{"id":80835,"date":"2021-04-22T00:15:00","date_gmt":"2021-04-22T07:15:00","guid":{"rendered":"https:\/\/restlesspilgrim.net\/blog\/?p=80835"},"modified":"2021-04-22T04:06:15","modified_gmt":"2021-04-22T11:06:15","slug":"pwj-s4e57","status":"publish","type":"post","link":"https:\/\/restlesspilgrim.net\/blog\/2021\/04\/22\/pwj-s4e57\/","title":{"rendered":"PWJ: S4E57 \u2013 AH \u2013 &#8220;After Hours&#8221; with Dr. Mark Vernon"},"content":{"rendered":"\n<figure class=\"wp-block-image size-large\"><a href=\"https:\/\/restlesspilgrim.net\/blog\/wp-content\/uploads\/2021\/04\/S4E57-Mark-Vernon-Banner.png\"><img loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" width=\"860\" height=\"484\" src=\"https:\/\/restlesspilgrim.net\/blog\/wp-content\/uploads\/2021\/04\/S4E57-Mark-Vernon-Banner.png\" alt=\"\" class=\"wp-image-80866\" srcset=\"https:\/\/restlesspilgrim.net\/blog\/wp-content\/uploads\/2021\/04\/S4E57-Mark-Vernon-Banner.png 860w, https:\/\/restlesspilgrim.net\/blog\/wp-content\/uploads\/2021\/04\/S4E57-Mark-Vernon-Banner-300x169.png 300w, https:\/\/restlesspilgrim.net\/blog\/wp-content\/uploads\/2021\/04\/S4E57-Mark-Vernon-Banner-768x432.png 768w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 860px) 100vw, 860px\" \/><\/a><\/figure>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">Continuing with <em>Barfield Month<\/em>, we invited Dr. Mark Vernon onto the show to discuss his Barfield-inspired book, &#8220;A Secret History of Christianity.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><strong>S4E57: &#8220;After Hours&#8221; with Dr. Mark Vernon<\/strong> (<a href=\"https:\/\/restlesspilgrim.net\/blog\/wp-content\/uploads\/2021\/04\/PWJ-S4E57.mp3\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noreferrer noopener\">Download<\/a>)<\/p>\n\n\n\n<figure class=\"wp-block-audio\"><audio controls src=\"https:\/\/restlesspilgrim.net\/blog\/wp-content\/uploads\/2021\/04\/PWJ-S4E57.mp3\"><\/audio><\/figure>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\" id=\"block-51396fab-e50d-4cf5-92e3-e840026c934b\">If you enjoy this episode, you can subscribe&nbsp;<a rel=\"noreferrer noopener\" href=\"http:\/\/feeds.feedburner.com\/TheEagleAndChildPodcast\" target=\"_blank\">manually<\/a>, or&nbsp;any place where good podcasts can be found&nbsp;(<a rel=\"noreferrer noopener\" href=\"https:\/\/itunes.apple.com\/us\/podcast\/the-eagle-and-child-podcast-restless-pilgrim\/id1289456381\" target=\"_blank\">iTunes<\/a>,&nbsp;<a rel=\"noreferrer noopener\" href=\"https:\/\/play.google.com\/music\/m\/Ixvobfgi2wk4rkdegdnbdqjjh44?t=The_Eagle_and_Child\" target=\"_blank\">Google Play<\/a>, <a rel=\"noreferrer noopener\" href=\"https:\/\/www.amazon.com\/Pints-with-Jack\/dp\/B08K57WLYB\/\" target=\"_blank\">Amazon<\/a>,&nbsp;<a rel=\"noreferrer noopener\" href=\"https:\/\/www.podbean.com\/podcast-detail\/wqkqe-5e798\/The+Eagle+and+Child\" target=\"_blank\">Podbean<\/a>,&nbsp;<a rel=\"noreferrer noopener\" href=\"http:\/\/www.stitcher.com\/s?fid=159766&amp;refid=stpr\" target=\"_blank\">Stitcher<\/a>,&nbsp;<a rel=\"noreferrer noopener\" href=\"https:\/\/tunein.com\/radio\/The-Eagle-and-Child-p1079872\/\" target=\"_blank\">TuneIn<\/a>&nbsp;and&nbsp;<a rel=\"noreferrer noopener\" href=\"https:\/\/overcast.fm\/itunes1289456381\/pints-with-jack\" target=\"_blank\">Overcast<\/a>), as well as on&nbsp;<a rel=\"noreferrer noopener\" href=\"https:\/\/www.youtube.com\/channel\/UCcYFlFuyOmYL6LcuicqzULw\" target=\"_blank\">YouTube<\/a>. The roadmap for Season 4 is&nbsp;<a href=\"http:\/\/restlesspilgrim.net\/blog\/pints-with-jack-season-4\/\">available here<\/a>.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\" id=\"block-a56ad4a8-f43a-4986-8d5f-09ffa487daa4\">More information about us can be found on our website,&nbsp;<a rel=\"noreferrer noopener\" href=\"https:\/\/www.pintswithjack.com\/\" target=\"_blank\">PintsWithJack.com<\/a>. If you\u2019d like to support us and get fantastic gifts,&nbsp;<a href=\"https:\/\/www.patreon.com\/pintswithjack\">please join us on Patreon<\/a>.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<!--more-->\n\n\n\n<h2 class=\"wp-block-heading\" id=\"block-2882b493-f1aa-48ab-8db6-3c40f02265fc\">Timestamps<\/h2>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\">00:00:00 \u2013 <em>Entering \u201cThe Eagle &amp; Child\u201d\u2026 <\/em><br>00:00:11 \u2013 <em>Welcome <\/em><br>00:00:41 \u2013 <em>Dr. Mark Vernon <\/em><br>00:09:00 \u2013 <em>Quote-of-the-week <\/em><br>00:09:30 \u2013 <em>Drink-of-the-week <\/em><br>00:09:53 \u2013 <em>Discussion: Background<\/em><br>00:13:11 \u2013 <em>Discussion: Meeting the Inklings<\/em><br>00:15:25 \u2013 <em>Discussion:  Barfield&#8217;s spiritual journey<\/em><br>00:20:44 \u2013 <em>Discussion: Barfield and Artificial Intelligence<\/em><br>00:31:26 \u2013 <em>Discussion: Sources of inspiration<\/em><br>00:39:17 \u2013 <em>Discussion: Early Old Testament Consciousness<\/em><br>00:44:12 \u2013 <em>Discussion: Meanwhile, in Athens&#8230; <\/em><br>00:45:56 \u2013 <em>Discussion: The Word was made flesh<\/em><br>00:49:18 \u2013 <em>Discussion: The bottom line <\/em><br>00:53:15 \u2013 <em>Discussion: Individualism and collectivism<\/em><br>00:58:40\u200b \u2013 <em>Discussion: Dante<\/em><br>01:03:05\u200b \u2013 <em>More Information<\/em><br>01:03:51\u200b \u2013 <em>\u201cLast Call\u201d Bell and Closing Thoughts<\/em><\/p>\n\n\n\n<h2 class=\"wp-block-heading\" id=\"block-256e7e4a-897b-43e2-a2ed-609bf087c84b\">YouTube Version<\/h2>\n\n\n\n<figure class=\"wp-block-embed is-type-video is-provider-youtube wp-block-embed-youtube wp-embed-aspect-16-9 wp-has-aspect-ratio\"><div class=\"wp-block-embed__wrapper\">\n<span class=\"embed-youtube\" style=\"text-align:center; display: block;\"><iframe loading=\"lazy\" class=\"youtube-player\" width=\"860\" height=\"484\" src=\"https:\/\/www.youtube.com\/embed\/4k7j85pxf-E?version=3&#038;rel=1&#038;showsearch=0&#038;showinfo=1&#038;iv_load_policy=1&#038;fs=1&#038;hl=en-US&#038;autohide=2&#038;wmode=transparent\" allowfullscreen=\"true\" style=\"border:0;\" sandbox=\"allow-scripts allow-same-origin allow-popups allow-presentation allow-popups-to-escape-sandbox\"><\/iframe><\/span>\n<\/div><\/figure>\n\n\n\n<h2 class=\"wp-block-heading\" id=\"block-a885e324-ccf9-42f2-9e03-3f3eb5dc7d6b\">After Show Skype Session<\/h2>\n\n\n\n<p class=\"wp-block-paragraph\"><em>No Skype Session today!<\/em><\/p>\n\n\n\n<h2 class=\"wp-block-heading\" id=\"block-27508392-5bf9-4ea7-9a6d-34a4e3476c70\">Show Notes<\/h2>\n\n\n\n<h3 class=\"wp-block-heading\" id=\"block-9a5c05ab-2df3-4086-b1f7-70d12e5536d9\">Biography<\/h3>\n\n\n\n<blockquote class=\"wp-block-quote is-layout-flow wp-block-quote-is-layout-flow\"><p>Mark is a psychotherapist and writer, with an interest in ancient philosophy, and a focus on the skills and insights that illuminate our inner lives. His studies began with a degree in physics, before two degrees in theology, followed by a PhD in philosophy &#8211; an academic journey that took him from the universities of Durham and Oxford to my own sister\u2019s alma mater, Warwick. His professional life began as a priest in the Church of England, from which he resigned about 20 years ago. Now as a psychodynamic psychotherapist, he has a private practice in London, working with individuals, as well as having worked at the Maudsley Hospital in south London in a personality disorder service. He is a teacher and writer, and is the author of A Secret History of Christianity, which is based upon the ideas of the Oxford Inkling we\u2019re looking at this month, Owen Barfield.<\/p><cite>Biographical information for Dr. Mark Vernon<\/cite><\/blockquote>\n\n\n\n<h3 class=\"wp-block-heading\" id=\"block-9a5c05ab-2df3-4086-b1f7-70d12e5536d9\">Chit Chat<\/h3>\n\n\n\n<ul class=\"wp-block-list\"><li>Like most of our guests during <em>Barfield Month<\/em>, I first heard about Mark Vernon through the Inklings\u2019 grandson, Owen A. Barfield when my wife and I were in England a couple of years ago. About a year later I heard him on Justin Brierly\u2019s show, <a href=\"https:\/\/www.premierchristianradio.com\/Shows\/Saturday\/Unbelievable\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noreferrer noopener\">Unbelievable?<\/a> with <a href=\"https:\/\/malcolmguite.wordpress.com\/\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noreferrer noopener\">Rev Malcolm Guite<\/a>, talking about Owen Barfield. <\/li><\/ul>\n\n\n\n<figure class=\"wp-block-embed is-type-video is-provider-youtube wp-block-embed-youtube wp-embed-aspect-16-9 wp-has-aspect-ratio\"><div class=\"wp-block-embed__wrapper\">\n<span class=\"embed-youtube\" style=\"text-align:center; display: block;\"><iframe loading=\"lazy\" class=\"youtube-player\" width=\"860\" height=\"484\" src=\"https:\/\/www.youtube.com\/embed\/2LIg0Xh3Sbk?version=3&#038;rel=1&#038;showsearch=0&#038;showinfo=1&#038;iv_load_policy=1&#038;fs=1&#038;hl=en-US&#038;autohide=2&#038;wmode=transparent\" allowfullscreen=\"true\" style=\"border:0;\" sandbox=\"allow-scripts allow-same-origin allow-popups allow-presentation allow-popups-to-escape-sandbox\"><\/iframe><\/span>\n<\/div><\/figure>\n\n\n\n<ul class=\"wp-block-list\"><li>One of the reasons I wanted him on the show for <em>Barfield Month<\/em> is because he&#8217;s doing two important things. Firstly, he seems to be convinced that Barfield\u2019s ideas have practical consequences and not just abstract ideas. Secondly, he&#8217;s trying to communicate these ideas to a popular audience, not simply academics.<\/li><\/ul>\n\n\n\n<h3 class=\"wp-block-heading\">Quote-of-the-week<\/h3>\n\n\n\n<ul class=\"wp-block-list\"><li>Since today we\u2019re going to be talking a lot about the evolution of consciousness, I chose today\u2019s quote from <em>Mere Christianity<\/em>&#8230;<\/li><\/ul>\n\n\n\n<blockquote class=\"wp-block-quote is-layout-flow wp-block-quote-is-layout-flow\"><p><em><em><em><em>\u201cPeople often ask when the next step in evolution \u2014 the step to something beyond man \u2014 will happen. But on the Christian view, it has happened already. In Christ a new kind of man appeared: and the new kind of life which began in Him is to be put into us.\u201d<\/em><\/em><\/em><\/em><\/p><cite>C.S. Lewis, Mere Christianity<\/cite><\/blockquote>\n\n\n\n<h3 class=\"wp-block-heading\">Drink-of-the-week<\/h3>\n\n\n\n<ul class=\"wp-block-list\"><li>The time difference between the West Coast of the United States and England meant that I recorded the interview early in the morning, so he was drinking Green Tea.<\/li><\/ul>\n\n\n\n<h2 class=\"wp-block-heading\" id=\"block-27508392-5bf9-4ea7-9a6d-34a4e3476c70\">Discussion<\/h2>\n\n\n\n<h3 class=\"wp-block-heading\">Biographical Information<\/h3>\n\n\n\n<blockquote class=\"wp-block-quote is-layout-flow wp-block-quote-is-layout-flow\"><p>Mark is a psychotherapist and writer, with an interest in ancient philosophy, and a focus on the skills and insights that illuminate our inner lives. His studies began with a degree in physics, before two degrees in theology, followed by a PhD in philosophy &#8211; an academic journey that took him from the universities of Durham and Oxford to my own sister\u2019s alma mater, Warwick. <br><br>His professional life began as a priest in the Church of England, from which he resigned about 20 years ago. Now as a psychodynamic psychotherapist, he has a private practice in London, working with individuals, as well as having worked at the Maudsley Hospital in south London in a personality disorder service. H<br><br>e is a teacher and writer, and is the author of A Secret History of Christianity, which is based upon the ideas of the Oxford Inkling we\u2019re looking at this month, Owen Barfield.<\/p><cite>Biographical information for Dr. Mark Vernon<\/cite><\/blockquote>\n\n\n\n<h3 class=\"wp-block-heading\">Background<\/h3>\n\n\n\n<ul class=\"wp-block-list\"><li>Mark has had a complicated spiritual journey, so I asked him to share a little bit about his background.<\/li><li>Mark explained how he first came across the Inklings and Owen Barfield in particular.<\/li><li>Barfield had a really interesting collection of ideas. He drew heavily from Rudolf Steiner and was an Anthroposophist for much of his life, but also came into the Anglican Church towards the end of his life. This is one of the tensions in his life which I find fascinating and perplexing. I asked Mark what he made of Barfield\u2019s own spiritual journey.<\/li><\/ul>\n\n\n\n<h3 class=\"wp-block-heading\">The Secret History of Christianity<\/h3>\n\n\n\n<ul class=\"wp-block-list\"><li>We turned to Dr. Vernon&#8217;s book, <em>The Secret History of Christianity<\/em>. I asked him to first explain what this &#8220;secret history&#8221; referred to.<\/li><li>Mark explained what <a href=\"https:\/\/youtu.be\/Uoy2jarCSro\">ideas from Owen Barfield<\/a> are found in this book and which come from other sources.<\/li><li>I explained that much of what Dr. Vernon reminds me of is Jordan Peterson, in the sense that he engages the Bible from a different angle than has been traditionally adopted. We spoke about Jordon briefly and I commented on his recent discussion of the recent conversation between Peterson and Pageau:<\/li><\/ul>\n\n\n\n<figure class=\"wp-block-embed is-type-video is-provider-youtube wp-block-embed-youtube wp-embed-aspect-16-9 wp-has-aspect-ratio\"><div class=\"wp-block-embed__wrapper\">\n<span class=\"embed-youtube\" style=\"text-align:center; display: block;\"><iframe loading=\"lazy\" class=\"youtube-player\" width=\"860\" height=\"484\" src=\"https:\/\/www.youtube.com\/embed\/MKtynmcrY3c?version=3&#038;rel=1&#038;showsearch=0&#038;showinfo=1&#038;iv_load_policy=1&#038;fs=1&#038;hl=en-US&#038;autohide=2&#038;wmode=transparent\" allowfullscreen=\"true\" style=\"border:0;\" sandbox=\"allow-scripts allow-same-origin allow-popups allow-presentation allow-popups-to-escape-sandbox\"><\/iframe><\/span>\n<\/div><\/figure>\n\n\n\n<h3 class=\"wp-block-heading\">Evolution of Consciousness<\/h3>\n\n\n\n<ul class=\"wp-block-list\"><li>We began by looking at the question of consciousness in the earliest books of the Bible. <\/li><li>Mark explained why he takes a detour and looks at the Greek lands.<\/li><li>Next we discussed Jesus and the impact that Barfield saw Him as having.<\/li><li>We concluded this section by talking about the practical impact of what is argued in this book. <\/li><\/ul>\n\n\n\n<h3 class=\"wp-block-heading\">Dante<\/h3>\n\n\n\n<ul class=\"wp-block-list\"><li>I pointed out the significance of Dante with regards to Lewis and the Inklings and their friends in general. I asked Dr. Vernon to talk about his <a rel=\"noreferrer noopener\" href=\"https:\/\/www.markvernon.com\/dantes-divine-comedy\" target=\"_blank\">Dante podcast<\/a> and his upcoming book on Dante.<\/li><\/ul>\n\n\n\n<h3 class=\"wp-block-heading\">More Information<\/h3>\n\n\n\n<ul class=\"wp-block-list\"><li><a rel=\"noreferrer noopener\" href=\"https:\/\/www.markvernon.com\/\" target=\"_blank\">MarkVernon.com<\/a><\/li><li><a href=\"https:\/\/www.markvernon.com\/dantes-divine-comedy\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noreferrer noopener\">Dante<\/a><\/li><\/ul>\n","protected":false},"excerpt":{"rendered":"<p>Continuing with Barfield Month, we invited Dr. Mark Vernon onto the show to discuss his Barfield-inspired book, &#8220;A Secret History of Christianity.<\/p>\n","protected":false},"author":2,"featured_media":80955,"comment_status":"open","ping_status":"open","sticky":false,"template":"","format":"standard","meta":{"_crdt_document":"","_jetpack_memberships_contains_paid_content":false,"footnotes":""},"categories":[3111],"tags":[5012,2969,5880,5395,4438,5879],"class_list":["post-80835","post","type-post","status-publish","format-standard","has-post-thumbnail","hentry","category-podcast","tag-c-s-lewis-2","tag-featured","tag-mark-vernon","tag-owen-barfield","tag-the-eagle-and-child-podcast","tag-the-secret-history-of-christianity"],"jetpack_featured_media_url":"https:\/\/restlesspilgrim.net\/blog\/wp-content\/uploads\/2021\/04\/S4E57-Blog.png","jetpack_sharing_enabled":true,"_links":{"self":[{"href":"https:\/\/restlesspilgrim.net\/blog\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/posts\/80835","targetHints":{"allow":["GET"]}}],"collection":[{"href":"https:\/\/restlesspilgrim.net\/blog\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/posts"}],"about":[{"href":"https:\/\/restlesspilgrim.net\/blog\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/types\/post"}],"author":[{"embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/restlesspilgrim.net\/blog\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/users\/2"}],"replies":[{"embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/restlesspilgrim.net\/blog\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/comments?post=80835"}],"version-history":[{"count":20,"href":"https:\/\/restlesspilgrim.net\/blog\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/posts\/80835\/revisions"}],"predecessor-version":[{"id":81240,"href":"https:\/\/restlesspilgrim.net\/blog\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/posts\/80835\/revisions\/81240"}],"wp:featuredmedia":[{"embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/restlesspilgrim.net\/blog\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/media\/80955"}],"wp:attachment":[{"href":"https:\/\/restlesspilgrim.net\/blog\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/media?parent=80835"}],"wp:term":[{"taxonomy":"category","embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/restlesspilgrim.net\/blog\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/categories?post=80835"},{"taxonomy":"post_tag","embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/restlesspilgrim.net\/blog\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/tags?post=80835"}],"curies":[{"name":"wp","href":"https:\/\/api.w.org\/{rel}","templated":true}]}}