{"id":70820,"date":"2019-04-23T07:00:35","date_gmt":"2019-04-23T14:00:35","guid":{"rendered":"http:\/\/restlesspilgrim.net\/blog\/?p=70820"},"modified":"2020-01-06T22:35:21","modified_gmt":"2020-01-07T05:35:21","slug":"pints-with-jack-s2e14","status":"publish","type":"post","link":"https:\/\/restlesspilgrim.net\/blog\/2019\/04\/23\/pints-with-jack-s2e14\/","title":{"rendered":"PWJ: S2E14 – TGD 9 – “The Grumbler and The Artist”"},"content":{"rendered":"\n
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Last week we began looking at Chapter 9. It’s an action-packed chapter so we decided to discuss it over the course of two episodes. As we finish the chapter we discuss two of the ghosts whom Lewis sees: The Grumbling Ghost and The Artistic Ghost…<\/p>\n\n\n\n

S2E14: \u201cThe Grumbler and the Artist\u201d <\/strong>(Download<\/a>)<\/p>\n\n\n\n

If you enjoy this episode, you can subscribe manually<\/a>, or any place where good podcasts can be found (iTunes<\/a>, Google Play<\/a>, Podbean<\/a>, Stitcher<\/a>, TuneIn<\/a> and Overcast<\/a>). <\/p>\n\n\n\n\n\n\n\n

Time Stamps <\/strong><\/p>\n\n\n\n

In case your podcast application has the ability to jump to certain time codes, here are the timestamps for the different parts of the episode. <\/p>\n\n\n\n

00:27 \u2013 Chapter Discussion
32:25 \u2013 Haikus <\/p>\n\n\n\n

Show Notes <\/strong><\/p>\n\n\n\n

\u2022 Picking up from last week, MacDonald tells the story of a man named Sir Archibald who was interested in \u201cSurvival\u201d. Sir Archibald starts off philosophical and ends up doing, what Lewis calls \u201cPsychical Research\u201d. I suggest he’s referring to a kind of parapsychology, a study of the psychic or paranormal. I noted that Spiritualism had received a great revival at the time. From Lewis\u2019 description, it seems that he travelled around the world looking for proofs of the supernatural and life after death and proving the immortality of the soul. If any listeners think I\u2019m misreading this, please let me know\u2026<\/p>\n\n\n\n

Lewis gives us lots of details about Sir Archibald, so I was pretty confident that he was referring to a real person. I reached out to William O’Flaherty<\/a> who sent me a screenshot from the book C.S. Lewis goes to Heaven<\/a> by David Clark.<\/p>\n\n\n\n

At first glance, this Ghost seems to be based upon a \u201ctragic, Irish parson\u201d Lewis came to know when he returned to his studies at Oxford after his military service. No longer a believer, his single obsession was \u201chuman survival;\u201d and yet he was not interested in seeing God, nor improving his soul to make it fit for immortality, or even meeting dead friends. \u201cAll he wanted was the assurance that something he could call \u201chimself\u201d would, on almost any terms, last longer than his bodily life\u201d (SBJ: 202).

But a closer look at the biographical details Lewis provides of \u201cSir Archibald\u201d reveals so many specific, historical facts that he must be describing someone else. Sir Archibald\u2019s obsession with the afterlife and his activities during the historical era in which Lewis places him point only to one individual: Sir Arthur, not Sir Archibald. Namely, Sir Arthur Conan Doyle. The famous creator of Sherlock Holmes lived from 1859 to July 7, 1930, making him roughly a contemporary of Lewis and this may be the reason he disguised his identity. Or perhaps Lewis simply did not wish to be inundated by thousands of letters from fans outraged that he had \u201csent\u201d the creator of the world\u2019s most famous and beloved detective to Hell.<\/p>C.S. Lewis goes to Heaven<\/cite><\/blockquote>\n\n\n\n

Matt googled “Sir Archibald” as I was reading this came came up with this<\/a> incorrect match.<\/p>\n\n\n\n

\u2022 MacDonald says that Sir Archibald eventually died, but he chose not to remain in Heaven:<\/p>\n\n\n\n

\u201c…there was no power in the universe would have prevented him staying and going on to the mountains. But do ye think that did him any good? This country was no use to him at all. Everyone here had ‘survived’ already. Nobody took the least interest in the question. There was nothing more to prove. His occupation was clean gone. Of course if he would only have admitted that he’d mistaken the means for the end and had a good laugh at himself he could have begun all over again like a little child and entered into joy. But he would not do that. He cared nothing about joy. In the end he went away.”<\/p>C.S. Lewis, The Great Divorce (Chapter 9)<\/cite><\/blockquote>\n\n\n\n

When Lewis expresses amazement at this, MacDonald gives him a glance and tells him that “It is nearer to such as you than ye think\u201d<\/em>, and points out other examples of when people mistake the means for the end: <\/p>\n\n\n\n

\u25cb Those who are so consumed with proving the existence of God that they came to care nothing for God Himself <\/p>\n\n\n\n

\u25cb There who are so focused on spreading Christianity, that they ignore Christ <\/p>\n\n\n\n

\u25cb Those who collect books but never read them <\/p>\n\n\n\n

\u25cb Those who organize charities but have lost all love for the poor<\/p>\n\n\n\n

We also added “Doing a C.S. Lewis podcast and not growing more like Christ” to the list. We then had a brief discussion about how we might add a chapter to this book of a Ghost who lead many to Christ, but was never converted himself. I suggested that such a person in this story would simply hang around the foothills of Heaven, wanting to see the fruit of his labour to the exclusion of heading on up into the mountain himself. Matt spoke about how this is another form of pride, since the evangelist wouldn’t see that it was grace in him and God working through him which did the real work.<\/p>\n\n\n\n

\u2022 This conversation makes Lewis feel awkward, so he changes the subject and asks why the Solid People didn\u2019t go down into Hell to rescue the Ghosts. More of this will be explained later, but MacDonald says that the Bright Spirits have come further to meet the Ghosts than he can possibly understand. He also says:<\/p>\n\n\n\n

\u201c\u2026it would be no use to come further even if it were possible. The sane would do no good if they made themselves mad to help madmen.”<\/p> C.S. Lewis, The Great Divorce (Chapter 9) <\/cite><\/blockquote>\n\n\n\n

Matt compared this to someone in ministry who doesn’t “recharge” by spending time in prayer and silence with God.<\/p>\n\n\n\n

\u2022 Lewis is worried about the Ghosts who never even make it to the bus. In response to this, MacDonald gives some of the most comforting words of this whole book:<\/p>\n\n\n\n

“Everyone who wishes [to enter the bus] does. Never fear. There are only two kinds of people in the end: those who say to God, ‘Thy will be done,’ and those to whom God says, in the end, ‘Thy will be done.’ All that are in Hell, choose it. Without that self-choice there could be no Hell. No soul that seriously and constantly desires joy will ever miss it. Those who seek find. To those who knock it is opened.”<\/p> C.S. Lewis, The Great Divorce (Chapter 9) <\/cite><\/blockquote>\n\n\n\n

\u2022 We now meet a new ghost. Their conversation is interrupted by \u201cthe thin voice of a Ghost talking at an enormous speed\u201d<\/em> which was addressing one of the Bright Spirits who doesn\u2019t get a word in edgewise. She complains about everything, including her trip to Heaven:<\/p>\n\n\n\n

“Oh, my dear, I’ve had such a dreadful time, I don’t know how I ever got here at all, I was coming with Elinor Stone and we’d arranged the whole thing and we were to meet at the corner of Sink Street; I made it perfectly plain because I knew what she was like and if I told her once I told her a hundred times I would not meet her outside that dreadful Marjori-i-banks woman’s house, not after the way she’d treated me \u2026 that was one of the most dreadful things that happened to me; I’ve been dying to tell you because I felt sure you’d tell me I acted rightly; no, wait a moment, dear, till I’ve told you – I tried living with her when I first came\u2026\u201d<\/p> C.S. Lewis, The Great Divorce (Chapter 9) <\/cite><\/blockquote>\n\n\n\n

This woman is the antithesis of joy. She complains about everything. I wonder if this character was inspired by his adoptive mother, Mrs. Moore. <\/p>\n\n\n\n

\u2022 Matt and I talk about visiting England and Lewis’ home, The Kilns…<\/p>\n\n\n\n

\u2022 All this this troubles Lewis, who says that should ought not to even be in danger of damnation:<\/p>\n\n\n\n

“…the shrill monotonous whine died away as the speaker, still accompanied by the bright patience at her side, moved out of hearing\u201d<\/p> C.S. Lewis, The Great Divorce (Chapter 9) <\/cite><\/blockquote>\n\n\n\n

\u2022 MacDonald then describes a version of \u201cHeavenly or Hellish Creatures\u201d which we encountered in Mere Christianity. He describes the process of how being a bad mood can be allowed to persist, then embraced and all of you will be lost to the the mood\u2026you will have ceased being a grumbler and have become a grumble. Dehumanizing nature of sin.<\/p>\n\n\n\n

\u201cShe isn’t wicked: she’s only a silly, garrulous old woman who has got into a habit of grumbling, and one feels that a little kindness, and rest, and change would put her all right.”<\/p> C.S. Lewis, The Great Divorce (Chapter 9) <\/cite><\/blockquote>\n\n\n\n

MacDonald makes some distinctions and offers some hope:<\/p>\n\n\n\n

\u201c…whether she is a grumbler, or only a grumble. If there is a real woman – even the least trace of one – still there inside the grumbling, it can be brought to life again. If there’s one wee spark under all those ashes, we’ll blow it till the whole pile is red and clear. But if there’s nothing but ashes we’ll not go on blowing them in our own eyes forever. They must be swept up.”<\/p> C.S. Lewis, The Great Divorce (Chapter 9) <\/cite><\/blockquote>\n\n\n\n

Matt talked about the deterioration which can happen and I explained that one of the reasons we fast during seasons such as Lent, to control the passions. We discussed the dehumanizing effect of sin.<\/p>\n\n\n\n

\u2022 MacDonald reminds Lewis that he\u2019s here to watch and listen. He invites Lewis to lean on his arm and go for a walk. Lewis says that leaning on the arm of someone older than himself took back to childhood. This reminded me of a blog post<\/a>. Lewis is doing what the Self-Conscious Ghost had great difficulty doing. Jack notes that leaning on MacDonald\u2019s arm helps a lot and he noticed that his other senses were sharpening.<\/p>\n\n\n\n

\u2022 They see many more Ghosts, but Lewis writes that the most pitiable one they see is a ghost who had the opposite problem of the Self-Conscious Ghost. She tried using her feminine charms to seduce the Solid People. Clearly this was a girl who on earth thought that her chief, or perhaps only value was in her beauty. Of course, here in Heaven, it looks ridiculous…<\/p>\n\n\n\n

\u2022 Lewis and MacDonald talk about what happened in the previous chapter with the unicorns.<\/p>\n\n\n\n

“Ye will have divined that he meant to frighten her; not that fear itself could make her less a Ghost, but if it took her mind a moment off herself, there might, in that moment, be a chance. I have seen them saved so.”<\/p> C.S. Lewis, The Great Divorce (Chapter 9) <\/cite><\/blockquote>\n\n\n\n

\u2022 Jack describes some of the other Ghosts they saw. Many of them came to Heaven simply to tell those there about Hell You see the way the Hellish always wants to pollute the Heavenly? Lewis says that they want to: <\/p>\n\n\n\n

\u201c…tinge Heaven with infernal images and colours\u201d<\/p> C.S. Lewis, The Great Divorce (Chapter 9) <\/cite><\/blockquote>\n\n\n\n

Some want to give academic lectures about it The reference to the \u201cmagic lantern\u201d is an archaic term to refer to a slide projector. Some want to tell anecdotes about notorious sinners. Some want to simply accuse those in Heaven of being sheltered! Some want to foment revolution in Heaven. <\/p>\n\n\n\n

Some want to tame Heaven by killing the animals, cutting down the treat, installing a railway, and \u201cdamming\u201d the river. Was this a subtle joke? Nothing is “damned” in Heaven!<\/p>\n\n\n\n

Some ghosts are materialists who come to let everyone know that it\u2019s a grand hallucination and that there\u2019s no life after death! Some ghosts come just to try and scare folks. <\/p>\n\n\n\n

The more monstrous-looking ghosts come simply to spit in Heaven\u2019s face! MacDonald comments that he\u2019s seen this kind of ghost converted while others have headed back: <\/p>\n\n\n\n

\u201cThose that hate goodness are sometimes nearer than those that know nothing at all about it and think they have it already.”<\/p> C.S. Lewis, The Great Divorce (Chapter 9) <\/cite><\/blockquote>\n\n\n\n

This serves as a lesson to remind us that we can\u2019t ever write anyone off, regardless of how lost they may seem. The job of Christians is to see the spark still alive and to nurture it into a flame.<\/p>\n\n\n\n

\u2022 The rest of this chapter we spend observing The Artistic Ghost. This Ghost was a famous artist on earth and the Solid Person he meets was a friend and fellow-artist. <\/p>\n\n\n\n

The Ghost wants to paint the Heavenly landscape. The Spirit tells him that he first needs to look at it. He points out that in his early days as an artist, he painted because he caught glimpses of Heaven in the earthly landscape which he could then convey to others. Of course, in this land, he has the real thing itself. The Bright Spirits see it better than he does, but in time that will change and when that happens, he\u2019ll want to communicate what he sees to the others. Until then, he invites him further up and further in…<\/p>\n\n\n\n

\u201cCome and see. He is endless. Come and feed.”<\/p> C.S. Lewis, The Great Divorce (Chapter 9) <\/cite><\/blockquote>\n\n\n\n

However, the Ghost can\u2019t let it go. He wants to know when he\u2019ll be able to start painting.<\/p>\n\n\n\n

\u201c…if you are interested in the country only for the sake of painting it, you’ll never learn to see the country.”<\/p> C.S. Lewis, The Great Divorce (Chapter 9) <\/cite><\/blockquote>\n\n\n\n

\u2022 This Ghost\u2019s issue is the same as many other ghosts – he\u2019s mistaking the means for the end. For example, the Episcopal Ghost, in his pursuit of inquiry, forgot that it has an end. Sir Archibald saw survival as an end and not as a means. This ghost has forgotten why he started painting. He\u2019s more concerned with paints themselves rather than the light and the truth which he was trying to communicate. The things of this world are meant to point forward. <\/p>\n\n\n\n

\u2022 The Bright Spirit tells the Artistic Ghost about a fountain in the mountains which will bring about self-forgetfulness. He compares it to Lethe, a river in the Greek underworld which would wipe away memory:<\/p>\n\n\n\n

“[The water in the fountain is]… very cold and clear, between two green hills. A little like Lethe. When you have drunk of it you forget forever all proprietorship in your own works. You enjoy them just as if they were someone else’s: without pride and without modesty.”<\/p> C.S. Lewis, The Great Divorce (Chapter 9) <\/cite><\/blockquote>\n\n\n\n

Matt spoke about the different kinds of pride which Lewis discussed in Mere Christianity<\/em>.<\/p>\n\n\n\n

\u2022 The Ghost doesn\u2019t seemed very psyched about this, but he does comfort himself with the thought that he\u2019ll meet interesting people and, by that, he means other artists such as Claude and Cezanne. He\u2019s amazed that his friend doesn\u2019t know whether or not they\u2019re here. The Spirit explains that fame doesn\u2019t work in the same way in this country<\/p>\n\n\n\n

\u201cThe Glory flows into everyone, and back from everyone: like light and mirrors. But the light’s the thing. They are all famous. They are all known, remembered, recognised by the only Mind that can give a perfect judgment.”<\/p> C.S. Lewis, The Great Divorce (Chapter 9) <\/cite><\/blockquote>\n\n\n\n

Once again, the artist isn\u2019t very pleased by this, but comforts himself that he will be still thought of as a great artist on earth. Unfortunately, the Spirit tells him that they\u2019ve both been forgotten on earth. This is too much for the Ghost who immediately heads back to the grey town, intent on self-promotion\u2026 He is a soul turned in on himself, “Incurvatus in se<\/em>“…<\/p>\n\n\n\n

\u2022 We ended the episode with the haikus which weren’t read last week: <\/p>\n\n\n\n

Complaining Ghost <\/strong>
Whining, complaining
From grumbler to a grumble
Nothing left to save <\/p>

MacDonald’s Promise<\/strong>
All men have a choice
Search for Joy and it is yours
Those who seek will find<\/p>

The Artistic Ghost <\/strong>
Don’t make a mistake
Choose Heaven, not the sign-posts!
The end, not the means!<\/p>Haikus for Chapter 9 of The Great Divorce<\/cite><\/blockquote>\n","protected":false},"excerpt":{"rendered":"

Last week we began looking at Chapter 9. It’s an action-packed chapter so we decided to discuss it over the course of two episodes. As we finish the chapter we discuss two of the ghosts whom Lewis sees: The Grumbling Ghost and The Artistic Ghost…<\/p>\n

Click on the episode title for Show Notes!<\/p>\n","protected":false},"author":2,"featured_media":71030,"comment_status":"open","ping_status":"open","sticky":false,"template":"","format":"standard","meta":{"_crdt_document":"","_jetpack_memberships_contains_paid_content":false,"footnotes":""},"categories":[3111],"tags":[5012,2969,5275,5264,4438,5274,5263],"class_list":["post-70820","post","type-post","status-publish","format-standard","has-post-thumbnail","hentry","category-podcast","tag-c-s-lewis-2","tag-featured","tag-macdonald","tag-the-artistic-ghost","tag-the-eagle-and-child-podcast","tag-the-fountain","tag-the-grumbling-ghost"],"jetpack_featured_media_url":"https:\/\/restlesspilgrim.net\/blog\/wp-content\/uploads\/2019\/04\/Artist-1.jpg","jetpack_sharing_enabled":true,"_links":{"self":[{"href":"https:\/\/restlesspilgrim.net\/blog\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/posts\/70820","targetHints":{"allow":["GET"]}}],"collection":[{"href":"https:\/\/restlesspilgrim.net\/blog\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/posts"}],"about":[{"href":"https:\/\/restlesspilgrim.net\/blog\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/types\/post"}],"author":[{"embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/restlesspilgrim.net\/blog\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/users\/2"}],"replies":[{"embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/restlesspilgrim.net\/blog\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/comments?post=70820"}],"version-history":[{"count":30,"href":"https:\/\/restlesspilgrim.net\/blog\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/posts\/70820\/revisions"}],"predecessor-version":[{"id":73742,"href":"https:\/\/restlesspilgrim.net\/blog\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/posts\/70820\/revisions\/73742"}],"wp:featuredmedia":[{"embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/restlesspilgrim.net\/blog\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/media\/71030"}],"wp:attachment":[{"href":"https:\/\/restlesspilgrim.net\/blog\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/media?parent=70820"}],"wp:term":[{"taxonomy":"category","embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/restlesspilgrim.net\/blog\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/categories?post=70820"},{"taxonomy":"post_tag","embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/restlesspilgrim.net\/blog\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/tags?post=70820"}],"curies":[{"name":"wp","href":"https:\/\/api.w.org\/{rel}","templated":true}]}}