{"id":60826,"date":"2016-03-15T07:00:57","date_gmt":"2016-03-15T14:00:57","guid":{"rendered":"http:\/\/restlesspilgrim.net\/blog\/?p=60826"},"modified":"2017-06-27T08:20:45","modified_gmt":"2017-06-27T15:20:45","slug":"faked-fathers","status":"publish","type":"post","link":"https:\/\/restlesspilgrim.net\/blog\/2016\/03\/15\/faked-fathers\/","title":{"rendered":"Quick Apology: Faked Fathers"},"content":{"rendered":"<p class=\"gmail_extra\">A few days ago I\u00a0posted a Quick Apology in response to a reader&#8217;s question on the subject of &#8220;Soul Sleep&#8221;. In that same email, he described another objection he had heard, which I&#8217;d like to address today.<\/p>\n<h2 class=\"gmail_extra\">Objection<\/h2>\n<p class=\"gmail_extra\">In the reader&#8217;s email, he wrote the following:<\/p>\n<p class=\"gmail_extra\" style=\"padding-left: 30px\"><em><span style=\"color: #000080\">I have recently encountered a non-Catholic&#8230;who\u00a0states that the Church Fathers never existed, i.e. all fake<\/span><\/em><\/p>\n<p class=\"gmail_extra\">Well&#8230;that&#8217;s quite the challenge! So, how might one\u00a0respond when encountering this objection?<\/p>\n<p class=\"gmail_extra\"><img loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"aligncenter size-full wp-image-60989\" src=\"http:\/\/restlesspilgrim.net\/blog\/wp-content\/uploads\/2016\/03\/Fathers.jpeg\" alt=\"Fathers\" width=\"850\" height=\"498\" srcset=\"https:\/\/restlesspilgrim.net\/blog\/wp-content\/uploads\/2016\/03\/Fathers.jpeg 850w, https:\/\/restlesspilgrim.net\/blog\/wp-content\/uploads\/2016\/03\/Fathers-300x176.jpeg 300w, https:\/\/restlesspilgrim.net\/blog\/wp-content\/uploads\/2016\/03\/Fathers-768x450.jpeg 768w, https:\/\/restlesspilgrim.net\/blog\/wp-content\/uploads\/2016\/03\/Fathers-600x352.jpeg 600w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 850px) 100vw, 850px\" \/><\/p>\n<p class=\"gmail_extra\"><!--more--><\/p>\n<h2 class=\"gmail_extra\">Response<\/h2>\n<p class=\"gmail_extra\">Here&#8217;s how I would reply if I encountered someone saying something like that&#8230;<\/p>\n<p class=\"gmail_extra\">1. I would begin with a very simple question: <strong>why<\/strong> do you say this? These are some very outlandish claims! What has made you\u00a0conclude that their works are faked? What evidence has led you\u00a0to this conclusion?<\/p>\n<p class=\"gmail_extra\">From the Protestant point of view, I can completely understand why you&#8217;d\u00a0<strong>want<\/strong>\u00a0them to be fake. The Fathers mostly likely describe a Christianity significantly removed from the kind you yourself practise, and I can imagine that this raises awkward questions as to why the Early Church didn&#8217;t\u00a0believe what you\u00a0believe&#8230;<\/p>\n<p>However, <b>wanting<\/b> them to be fake and their actually\u00a0<b>being<\/b> fake are two different things. What <b>evidence<\/b> have you seen to make you\u00a0think so? Would you agree that\u00a0<strong>if<\/strong> the writings are authentic then the case for Catholicism is much\u00a0stronger?<\/p>\n<p class=\"gmail_extra\">2. Why is it that your opinion is not shared by scholars? Respected Catholic, Protestant and atheistic scholars affirm the bulk of the corpus of writings. There are some works where there are questions about authorship and textual integrity, but these are in the significant\u00a0minority.<\/p>\n<p>Does your denial of established history extend into other areas, or is it restricted to the Early Church Fathers?<\/p>\n<p class=\"gmail_extra\">3. Please see this image below:<\/p>\n<p class=\"gmail_extra\"><img loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"aligncenter size-full wp-image-64700\" src=\"http:\/\/restlesspilgrim.net\/blog\/wp-content\/uploads\/2016\/03\/Early-Church-Works.jpg\" alt=\"Early Church Works\" width=\"400\" height=\"223\" srcset=\"https:\/\/restlesspilgrim.net\/blog\/wp-content\/uploads\/2016\/03\/Early-Church-Works.jpg 400w, https:\/\/restlesspilgrim.net\/blog\/wp-content\/uploads\/2016\/03\/Early-Church-Works-300x167.jpg 300w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 400px) 100vw, 400px\" \/><\/p>\n<p class=\"gmail_extra\">This is a picture of some of the volumes of the works of the Early Church Fathers&#8230;.thin paper&#8230;tiny text&#8230; Are you\u00a0really saying that all these are fake? Do you\u00a0realize what a<b> colossal task<\/b>\u00a0it author these?\u00a0This then begs other questions:<\/p>\n<ul>\n<li>If they&#8217;re fake, who wrote them?<\/li>\n<li><b>When<\/b> was this massive forgery performed?<\/li>\n<li><b>Why<\/b> were they written? <b>How<\/b> did they manage to produce\u00a0their works in <b>so many different languages<\/b>: Greek, Latin,\u00a0Coptic, Syriac, Ge&#8217;ez, and Armenian&#8230;<\/li>\n<li>How did they manage to distribute these texts <b>throughout the known world<\/b>?<\/li>\n<li>How did they manage to get <b>intricate cross-references, quotations and references<\/b> to contemporary history so expertly interlaced into the text?<\/li>\n<\/ul>\n<p class=\"gmail_extra\">4. If the Church Fathers are faked, are you saying that the Councils of Nicaea, Constantinople, Hippo etc. never happened? If so, from where did we get the Nicene Creed? What about the Liturgy of St. James, St. Basil, St. John Chrysostom&#8230;where did they come from?<\/p>\n<p class=\"gmail_extra\">5. If the Early Church Fathers could be faked&#8230;why would you\u00a0trust the Bible? If an evil, conspiring, apostate, whore-of-Babylon Church could fabricate the Fathers, what would stop them doing the same with the Bible?<\/p>\n<p>In fact,\u00a0how do you think we got the Bible? \u00a0How has it been preserved through the centuries?\u00a0It was at <b>Catholic councils <\/b>led\u00a0by\u00a0<b>Catholic Fathers<\/b>. If they didn&#8217;t sort out the New Testament, <strong>who did<\/strong> and what is the <strong>evidence<\/strong> for this?<\/p>\n<p>I&#8217;d also recommend you read <a href=\"http:\/\/restlesspilgrim.net\/blog\/2015\/05\/23\/the-dog-who-never-barked\/\" target=\"_blank\">The Dog Who never Barked<\/a> which outlines a general approach for\u00a0refuting bogus historical claims.<\/p>\n","protected":false},"excerpt":{"rendered":"<p>A few days ago I\u00a0posted a Quick Apology in response to a reader&#8217;s question on the subject of &#8220;Soul Sleep&#8221;. In that same email, he described another objection he had heard, which I&#8217;d like to address today. Objection In the reader&#8217;s email, he wrote the following: I have recently encountered a non-Catholic&#8230;who\u00a0states that the Church Fathers never existed, i.e. all<\/p>\n","protected":false},"author":2,"featured_media":60985,"comment_status":"open","ping_status":"open","sticky":false,"template":"","format":"standard","meta":{"_crdt_document":"","_jetpack_memberships_contains_paid_content":false,"footnotes":""},"categories":[17],"tags":[1566,51,3631,2969,3632,1436],"class_list":["post-60826","post","type-post","status-publish","format-standard","has-post-thumbnail","hentry","category-faith","tag-church-history","tag-early-church-fathers","tag-fake","tag-featured","tag-forgery","tag-history"],"jetpack_featured_media_url":"https:\/\/restlesspilgrim.net\/blog\/wp-content\/uploads\/2016\/02\/church-fathers.jpg","jetpack_sharing_enabled":true,"_links":{"self":[{"href":"https:\/\/restlesspilgrim.net\/blog\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/posts\/60826","targetHints":{"allow":["GET"]}}],"collection":[{"href":"https:\/\/restlesspilgrim.net\/blog\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/posts"}],"about":[{"href":"https:\/\/restlesspilgrim.net\/blog\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/types\/post"}],"author":[{"embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/restlesspilgrim.net\/blog\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/users\/2"}],"replies":[{"embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/restlesspilgrim.net\/blog\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/comments?post=60826"}],"version-history":[{"count":9,"href":"https:\/\/restlesspilgrim.net\/blog\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/posts\/60826\/revisions"}],"predecessor-version":[{"id":64701,"href":"https:\/\/restlesspilgrim.net\/blog\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/posts\/60826\/revisions\/64701"}],"wp:featuredmedia":[{"embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/restlesspilgrim.net\/blog\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/media\/60985"}],"wp:attachment":[{"href":"https:\/\/restlesspilgrim.net\/blog\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/media?parent=60826"}],"wp:term":[{"taxonomy":"category","embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/restlesspilgrim.net\/blog\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/categories?post=60826"},{"taxonomy":"post_tag","embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/restlesspilgrim.net\/blog\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/tags?post=60826"}],"curies":[{"name":"wp","href":"https:\/\/api.w.org\/{rel}","templated":true}]}}