{"id":20435,"date":"2013-10-05T07:00:48","date_gmt":"2013-10-05T14:00:48","guid":{"rendered":"http:\/\/restlesspilgrim.net\/blog\/?p=20435"},"modified":"2015-03-19T16:46:06","modified_gmt":"2015-03-19T23:46:06","slug":"empty-chairs-at-empty-altars-part-2","status":"publish","type":"post","link":"https:\/\/restlesspilgrim.net\/blog\/2013\/10\/05\/empty-chairs-at-empty-altars-part-2\/","title":{"rendered":"Empty chairs at empty altars: Part 2"},"content":{"rendered":"

Yesterday<\/a> I began talking about an exchange I had with Mike, a sedevacantist<\/a> gentleman who asserts that the Second Vatican Council was a heretical council…<\/p>\n

A Future Restoration?<\/h2>\n

If one ascribed to Mike’s assessment of Catholicism, things really do look pretty bleak: virtually every Catholic has been excommunicated from the Church and, as a result, there are no priests or Sacraments. I was intrigued as to how Mike imagined this dire situation ever being resolved.\u00a0I mean, if one held to his position, the New Covenant is in tatters!\u00a0Wouldn’t Jesus need to come back to re-instute the papacy, the priesthood and the Sacraments? But this is a problem since we know that Jesus isn’t returning until His Second Coming. Here is what Mike had to say:<\/p>\n

“I can’t tell you the nature of the\u00a0<\/em>Divine intercession by which the\u00a0<\/em>hierarchy of the Catholic Church will be\u00a0<\/em><\/span>restored, if this were God’s will”<\/em><\/p>\n

Doesn’t it seem odd that Jesus would establish the Papacy, only to see it disappear from the earth with no possible way of being restored? In response to this question, Mike asked me why I trusted the Pope. I said that it’s simply because I trust Jesus Christ. He\u00a0established Peter as the rock. He gave\u00a0Peter the keys. If the papacy could survive Pope\u00a0Alexander VI, I’m pretty sure it can survive Pope Benedict XVI!<\/p>\n

\"Vatican<\/p>\n

<\/p>\n

Recognizing the Church\u00a0<\/span><\/h2>\n

I asked Mike whether or not he had an objective way of identifying the Catholic Church and\u00a0those in communion with Her. While waiting for his response, I explained how I<\/strong><\/em> identify the Catholic Church. Firstly, I recognize the Church through the bishops….<\/p>\n

“Where the bishop is<\/span>, there let the\u00a0people also be; just as where Jesus\u00a0Christ is, there is the Catholic Church<\/span>”\u00a0<\/em>– St. Ignatius to the Smyrnaeans<\/span><\/p>\n

…and, more importantly, through the\u00a0successor of Peter…<\/p>\n

“If someone does not hold fast to this\u00a0unity of Peter<\/span>, can he imagine that he\u00a0still holds the faith<\/span>? If he [should]\u00a0desert the chair of Peter upon whom the\u00a0Church was built, can he still be\u00a0confident that he is in the Church?”<\/em>\u00a0–\u00a0St. Cyprian of Carthage, The Unity of\u00a0the Catholic Church<\/span><\/p>\n

I didn’t receive a response to this line of questioning…<\/p>\n

Recognizing Restoration<\/h2>\n

I went on to ask Mike how he would know if, at some point in the future, the Catholic Church had been truly restored. Here’s the answer he gave:<\/p>\n

“THE clear indication would be that the\u00a0<\/em><\/span>person in the restored Papacy would\u00a0<\/em><\/span>immediately and publicly inform the\u00a0<\/span><\/em><\/span>heretics<\/span> (‘lutherans’, ‘methodists’, ‘<\/em><\/span>evangelicals’, etc.) and the un-<\/em><\/span>baptized pagans (‘muslims’, ‘jews’,\u00a0<\/em><\/span>‘buddhists’, ‘hindus’, etc.) … that\u00a0<\/em><\/span>they are all headed for Hell<\/span> with no\u00a0<\/em><\/span>exception.”<\/em><\/span><\/p>\n

So, although Mike knows of no real way in which the Church could be restored, he feels pretty confident that if the Pope started damning a large proportion of the world, we’d be getting things back on track…<\/p>\n

I found his position rather ironic. In Mike’s literature he spoke voluminously against\u00a0the\u00a0possibility of salvation for those not\u00a0in formal, visible union with Catholic\u00a0Church. What is bizarre about this is that, by\u00a0most standards, Mike himself appears to be outside of visible communion with the Church<\/strong>…yet he would assert a hope of Heaven! Mike is effectively protesting at my<\/strong> hope of his<\/strong> salvation!<\/p>\n

The Interpreter<\/h2>\n

Obviously, Mike and I disagreed over his interpretation of Catholic teaching, so I asked him who is the official<\/span> interpreter of Catholic Dogma. His response put me in mind of a Sola Scriptura<\/em> Christian:<\/p>\n

“The Dogma doesn’t need ‘interpretation’… it is crystal clear with no\u00a0ambiguity whatsoever … this is by the\u00a0power of the Holy Spirit”<\/em><\/span><\/p>\n

Doesn’t that sound like a fundamentalist speaking about the Bible?\u00a0According to Mike, Catholic teaching is all very easy to understand. I guess the establishment of the Magisterium was apparently never really necessary! I asked him what the difference was\u00a0between his position and that of a Protestant. A Protestant would contend that he is\u00a0subject to the written Word of God, but in reality it is ultimately his own private,\u00a0fallible interpretation. Couldn’t the\u00a0same thing be said of Mike’s interpretation of the doctrines which he contends Vatican II violated?<\/p>\n

I suppose it comes down to this: how far\u00a0should a Catholic trust the successor of\u00a0Peter and the Apostles and submit to\u00a0them in obedience to Christ? At what\u00a0point does the individual Catholic have the right to disobey\u00a0the Pope and the Bishops and declare\u00a0them all heretics?<\/p>\n

Again,\u00a0I received no response to this line of questioning…<\/p>\n

Part 1<\/a> | Part 2 | Part 3<\/a><\/p>\n

The article Empty Chairs at Empty Altars: Part 2<\/a> first appeared on RestlessPilgrim.net<\/a><\/p>\n","protected":false},"excerpt":{"rendered":"

Yesterday I began talking about an exchange I had with Mike, a sedevacantist gentleman who asserts that the Second Vatican Council was a heretical council… A Future Restoration? If one ascribed to Mike’s assessment of Catholicism, things really do look pretty bleak: virtually every Catholic has been excommunicated from the Church and, as a result, there are no priests or<\/p>\n","protected":false},"author":2,"featured_media":0,"comment_status":"open","ping_status":"open","sticky":false,"template":"","format":"standard","meta":{"_crdt_document":"","_jetpack_memberships_contains_paid_content":false,"footnotes":""},"categories":[28,17],"tags":[2612,2969,918],"class_list":["post-20435","post","type-post","status-publish","format-standard","hentry","category-apologetics","category-faith","tag-empty-chairs-at-empty-altars","tag-featured","tag-sedevacantist"],"jetpack_featured_media_url":"","jetpack_sharing_enabled":true,"_links":{"self":[{"href":"https:\/\/restlesspilgrim.net\/blog\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/posts\/20435","targetHints":{"allow":["GET"]}}],"collection":[{"href":"https:\/\/restlesspilgrim.net\/blog\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/posts"}],"about":[{"href":"https:\/\/restlesspilgrim.net\/blog\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/types\/post"}],"author":[{"embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/restlesspilgrim.net\/blog\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/users\/2"}],"replies":[{"embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/restlesspilgrim.net\/blog\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/comments?post=20435"}],"version-history":[{"count":14,"href":"https:\/\/restlesspilgrim.net\/blog\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/posts\/20435\/revisions"}],"predecessor-version":[{"id":56754,"href":"https:\/\/restlesspilgrim.net\/blog\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/posts\/20435\/revisions\/56754"}],"wp:attachment":[{"href":"https:\/\/restlesspilgrim.net\/blog\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/media?parent=20435"}],"wp:term":[{"taxonomy":"category","embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/restlesspilgrim.net\/blog\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/categories?post=20435"},{"taxonomy":"post_tag","embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/restlesspilgrim.net\/blog\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/tags?post=20435"}],"curies":[{"name":"wp","href":"https:\/\/api.w.org\/{rel}","templated":true}]}}